U. Rebel
Treestump
As you read this, I'm getting NKed on Night 1.
Posts: 25
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Post by U. Rebel on Jun 22, 2018 20:01:01 GMT
Lurking has very commonly been used as a policy for lynching. It's classified as anti-town due to the person lurking not being very readable. I wanted to know your opinions on whether lurking is or is not scummy. Post your opinion in the general format that I use in my argument below. State your opinion, then write a brief explanation (at least 3 sentences, it can be longer) on why you think that way. Also, remember to cast your vote on the poll.
I, rather infamously, have said multiple times that lurking isn't necessarily scummy and isn't a good reason to policy lynch someone. This is because although the person lurking can't be read for what they've said, hurting town's reads, it doesn't necessarily mean they're scum. Also, the first people to lynch lurkers are usually scum trying to find an easy reason to get town lynched.
Many people say that scum lurk to try to hinder town's progress and that lurking is scummy. But if it was scummy, and it's been that way for AGES, why would "scum" still be lurking, knowing that town would scumread them for it. My argument is that if lurking has been known to be scummy, why is "scum" still doing it?
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Post by happylappy on Jun 22, 2018 20:15:59 GMT
I agree, honestly lurking isn't so much of a big deal, at least in moderation. Honestly I see little to no problems with it. People seem to love policy lynching lurkers, but rarely do these baseless lynches ever flip scum. Moreover, these people who keep lynching lurkers usually have no actual scumreads, and just want to push an easy lynch.
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Post by Snaq ◢ ◤ on Jun 22, 2018 20:19:45 GMT
It is bad for town.
If you're town you're negatively contributing to your wincon.
If you do it as town you allow scum to hide more easily as more of the lurkers are town.
It's easy for scum not to be scumread this way.
So yes, it is scummy, and you shouldn't lurk.
This, of course implies that you're not doing shit. If you're just not being the most active but still share useful insights or do other things, then I wouldn't classify it as "lurking", if you would classify this as "lurking", then no it doesn't have to be scummy.
But yes, lynch people who are not contributing at all. They're both scummy and if they're town they will not help anyway.
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Post by Dasocks~ on Jun 22, 2018 20:20:56 GMT
Lurking is inherently scummy, whichever way you look at it. For sure, it could be town trying to hide; but that in itself prevents reads, making scumfinding harder. Scum lurk to get attention off themselves, and disrupt any reads. Though this usually happens mostly d1- Lurking is lurking. Sure, it may be a commonly scummy practice, but if you pull it off unnoticed it works well. Besides, some would argue it's better than accidentally slipping, or saying something town doesn't like, resulting in a lynch.
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Post by Snaq ◢ ◤ on Jun 22, 2018 20:21:43 GMT
I, rather infamously, have said multiple times that lurking isn't necessarily scummy and isn't a good reason to policy lynch someone. This is because although the person lurking can't be read for what they've said, hurting town's reads, it doesn't necessarily mean they're scum. Also, the first people to lynch lurkers are usually scum trying to find an easy reason to get town lynched. It is scummy if someone only wants to try to read lurkers. This means that they're looking for an easy way out. It's not scummy if you want to lynch lurkers, but also have other reads. It doesn't mean they're scum, but they're bad town if they are. No one is guaranteed scum. This means that it's still a reason to scumread even if they are not confirmed scum and the great thing is that, if they don't get more active (which is sometimes the function of wagons on them, that allow you to read them better) they'd be useless anyway! You don't want someone like that in the late-game lol. I don't really get why this is a question. Refer to my previous post for edge cases.
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Post by qtball on Jun 22, 2018 21:32:47 GMT
If you're a town lurker you deserve to be policied, on the basis that policy means you should be lynched. It doesn't make you scum to lurk, but to lurk is to be directly hurting your wincon (if town) and thus deserves to be punished (within game I mean) or at least discouraged.
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Post by Crespo on Jun 22, 2018 21:34:18 GMT
How would you advise against lurking for new people then? I see many people trying not to lurk but end up with just filler posts so do you guys have any advice for that? (slight offtopic)
Edit: Lurking also allows prs not to be outed if the lurker is a pr as scum have no reads on them.
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Post by Snaq ◢ ◤ on Jun 22, 2018 21:44:15 GMT
How would you advise against lurking for new people then? I see many people trying not to lurk but end up with just filler posts so do you guys have any advice for that? (slight offtopic) Edit: Lurking also allows prs not to be outed if the lurker is a pr as scum have no reads on them. New players who lurk because they don't know what to do, should still be lynched at some point as you can't have them in LyLo. However, it is slightly different for a new player because they do not know how to contribute. If you are a player who should know how to contribute, you have no excuse to lurk. That said, people should just sometimes try to help new players a bit more. Explain things to them, involve them. Instead of throwing terminology at them at a speed they can't understand. Ok, this is also relevant for Classic6. Most PRs should really not have all that different day-game than other town players. If you do, you may be doing things wrong. If you are lurking to some degree specifically to avoid being read, then this may cause you to be read (I do sometimes, honestly. Especially with players who wouldn't otherwise and I know they're not scum). You should just play like always. During the day, your goal is still to scumhunt.If you want to be a bit less noticeable, I guess that can be fair enough (though you can be read on this!), but that's not equal to lurking.
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Post by Snaq ◢ ◤ on Jun 22, 2018 21:48:30 GMT
I wanted to add onto the previous post, if you feel like your PR game is significantly different from your VT game, consider why? Is it just because of the pressure (gambits and claims don't count to me, as those are in specific situations). (Good) scum should be able to recognise it if you're playing differently. As I mentioned before, you can try to lead the town less, but you shouldn't go full on lurk. Full on lurk allows the scum to masquerade between the town lurkers as I mentioned before, and is thus in my opinion inherently harmful.
This doesn't mean you should always be talking if you have nothing to say. Don't. Just don't go without contributing. Say what's on your mind. Try to give reads. Try to form reads by pressuring people and asking questions. Etc.
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Post by Crespo on Jun 22, 2018 21:52:12 GMT
Fair enough. We had a similar thread to this not long ago ( ps-mafia.proboards.com/thread/602/lurkers ). I do get that new players aren't expected to start of leading town or w/e but then again we let ILikeBugs and Darnell lurk because...? There should actually be punishments set in place for experienced players because they lurk lol. Most excuses is "I'm multitasking" or "I am doing something" but if you join a game you should know that it will take a while to play and by joining the game you are comitting to the game. Half of this doesn't make sense but I can't type rn and am v tired
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Post by ForgotToFlush on Jun 22, 2018 22:06:30 GMT
LMAAAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
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Post by Bomb Moss on Jun 23, 2018 1:32:52 GMT
Lurking isn't inherently scummy.
But a vast majority of lurking cases are harmful to town and thus scummy.
There are rare cases where lurking as Town isn't scummy, but those cases are few and far between, and our server tends to enjoy abusing these "few and far between" cases and think they are one of them.
So for the sake of everyone, don't lurk.
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Post by Bomb Moss on Jun 23, 2018 1:35:04 GMT
Big issue with the lurking thing is that server lets them off too easily sometimes and are going too bonkers over them at other times.
Rule of thumb: If you poke at them and they start providing a bit, just poke at them more. If they just totally vegetable and ignore/give a BS excuse, just policy them.
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Post by Schrodinger on Jun 23, 2018 19:37:37 GMT
After seeing this, i find that lurking is a really underrated scum tactic lol. When i look back, most of the players that get to lylo in server are lurkers, because the more active and contributing players are killed off by scum and everyone just avoids lynching lurkers because, as most of you said, the people who start a lynch on lurkers are scum, and hence both factions dont bother doing that because they know they can easily win against them in lylo. Talking about lylo, a lylo with three lurkers is the worse because its dependent on luck, which it should never be. So i personally just lynch lurkers to policy, unless they lurk really intensely. Because most times, lurkers are bad players who dont really know how to read and just got along for the ride. Also, there is a pattern of lurking. The scum lurking and the town lurking. Its difficult to differentiate, but ill explain. In big games like fishuls, as town i just tend to lean back and relax and lurk, to read what everyone is saying and to formulate/strengthen my reads. I lurk as a pr too, to avoid scum's attention and counting on others to make themself look like a pr. on the scummy side, when i call a lurker out, that reaction is everything. I dont know how to Also, unless lurkers get 3/4 lynches, they dont really try to contribute since they know the lynches are just for So to sum it up, dont lurk as town, unless you have to. and ill like to encourage lynching lurkers early on, so they dont lurk in future games, because thats anti town.
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Post by Bomb Moss on Jun 24, 2018 1:33:29 GMT
Lurking is acceptable in a day 1 of like a 18p game when everyone's shitposting and you're struggling to read and if you post you're just gonna clog up the thread. It's not acceptable for any longer than that though.
So lurking isn't ALWAYS antitown, but it usually is
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Post by qtball on Jun 24, 2018 5:51:23 GMT
I guess to add to my previous post, lurking is not scummy __because__ someone who has no content to read off of is unreadable (bar player meta). Lurking thereby is something that should be discouraged and lurkers should be lynched due to the lack of content as well as the mystery clouding their faction. While lynching lurkers may seem scummy for trying to go for an easy lynch, the fact is the game becomes easier when you can read everyone, and by not lynching lurkers it is directly encouraging them to continue whether town or scum. Lurking does not correlate with faction but it does correlate with factional wincons.
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Post by Snaq ◢ ◤ on Jun 24, 2018 7:54:39 GMT
I guess to add to my previous post, lurking is not scummy __because__ someone who has no content to read off of is unreadable (bar player meta). This may seem true, but it actually isn't. If you know that someone is here, and not contributing, then the choice to willingly not contribute is scummy.
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Post by motogp on Jun 24, 2018 11:11:06 GMT
I guess to add to my previous post, lurking is not scummy __because__ someone who has no content to read off of is unreadable (bar player meta). Lurking thereby is something that should be discouraged and lurkers should be lynched due to the lack of content as well as the mystery clouding their faction. While lynching lurkers may seem scummy for trying to go for an easy lynch, the fact is the game becomes easier when you can read everyone, and by not lynching lurkers it is directly encouraging them to continue whether town or scum. Lurking does not correlate with faction but it does correlate with factional wincons. calling out ANYONE for policying lurkers is extremely scummy I personally try to policy lurkers/people I know don't speak much as scum in the early days of a game
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Post by motogp on Jun 24, 2018 11:13:26 GMT
I agree, honestly lurking isn't so much of a big deal, at least in moderation. Honestly I see little to no problems with it. People seem to love policy lynching lurkers, but rarely do these baseless lynches ever flip scum. Moreover, these people who keep lynching lurkers usually have no actual scumreads, and just want to push an easy lynch. most of the time,a lurker is a NEEDED lynch in order to forward discussion however I remember a game where town won 16p modexe in 5 days by shooting lurkers every day,4 of which flipped scum so lurkers can be scum
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Post by motogp on Jun 24, 2018 11:16:37 GMT
I use a strategy based on people who lurk to discover (as scum) 1.the cop in large classic games 2. the cop and the jailkeeper in classic 6 +reading lurkers helps a lot with POE in games like modexe and nommy.
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Post by Bomb Moss on Jun 24, 2018 13:09:36 GMT
I use a strategy based on people who lurk to discover (as scum) 1.the cop in large classic games 2. the cop and the jailkeeper in classic 6 +reading lurkers helps a lot with POE in games like modexe and nommy. even more reason for people not to lurk as PRs
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U. Rebel
Treestump
As you read this, I'm getting NKed on Night 1.
Posts: 25
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Post by U. Rebel on Jun 24, 2018 14:28:16 GMT
I guess to add to my previous post, lurking is not scummy __because__ someone who has no content to read off of is unreadable (bar player meta). Lurking thereby is something that should be discouraged and lurkers should be lynched due to the lack of content as well as the mystery clouding their faction. While lynching lurkers may seem scummy for trying to go for an easy lynch, the fact is the game becomes easier when you can read everyone, and by not lynching lurkers it is directly encouraging them to continue whether town or scum. Lurking does not correlate with faction but it does correlate with factional wincons. calling out ANYONE for policying lurkers is extremely scummyI personally try to policy lurkers/people I know don't speak much as scum in the early days of a game People who policy lurkers when there are actually things going on are most likely scum just trying to distance themselves from the main game and just trying to get a free lynch on town. Again, why would scum lurk if they know that they would be policied for it?
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Post by Snaq ◢ ◤ on Jun 24, 2018 14:36:22 GMT
calling out ANYONE for policying lurkers is extremely scummyI personally try to policy lurkers/people I know don't speak much as scum in the early days of a game People who policy lurkers when there are actually things going on are most likely scum just trying to distance themselves from the main game and just trying to get a free lynch on town. Again, why would scum lurk if they know that they would be policied for it?Same goes for town. The fact is that lurking is still a viable strategy, hence scum does it. Town often keeps itself busy in cross tunnels or whatever. Meanwhile, people who call out for policying lurkers is not per se extremely scummy. As I said before, if you are just trying to only read lurkers and act as if everyone else is town because of that (hint: they're not), it is just because you want to avoid making real reads. If you want to lynch lurkers because they're playing horribly, have a large chance of being scum, and not being useful, while also making reads of the rest (even if not lynching them yet) and contributing in general, is not scummy. Of course this is a spectrum, but yeah. I hope I made my point clear.
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Post by gigabytetroubadour on Jun 25, 2018 21:45:09 GMT
anything scum can do town can do better - lurking (or really any static tell) isnt scummy
doesnt change the fact it's shit play and when you have a fairly townie table lynching lurkers is a good strategy (if you're getting townflips when you shouldn't, maybe there's a deepwolf people are overlooking)
from what i've seen here people just need to learn how to actually form reads and play the game. as an outsider who's back here after playing on other sites for 2 years, i personally think encouraging more, smaller setups with low amounts of PRs and longer times but active activity checks might be a good solution. something like 9p, 7-8 day deadlines, majority lynch? if i were to mod here i'd probably think of a fun micro gimmick to host, as long as it's something that kind of forces people to get more into the dayplay rather than let the nightplay take over too much so that people dont just lurk and make obvious actions based on rep.
im kind of working on a concept that's like the above but i probably should get more involved in the community before hosting
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Post by Bomb Moss on Jun 26, 2018 14:03:21 GMT
anything scum can do town can do better - lurking (or really any static tell) isnt scummy doesnt change the fact it's shit play and when you have a fairly townie table lynching lurkers is a good strategy (if you're getting townflips when you shouldn't, maybe there's a deepwolf people are overlooking) from what i've seen here people just need to learn how to actually form reads and play the game. as an outsider who's back here after playing on other sites for 2 years, i personally think encouraging more, smaller setups with low amounts of PRs and longer times but active activity checks might be a good solution. something like 9p, 7-8 day deadlines, majority lynch? if i were to mod here i'd probably think of a fun micro gimmick to host, as long as it's something that kind of forces people to get more into the dayplay rather than let the nightplay take over too much so that people dont just lurk and make obvious actions based on rep. im kind of working on a concept that's like the above but i probably should get more involved in the community before hosting QFT
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