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Post by spiderz on Jun 20, 2020 14:44:08 GMT
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Post by ScorrchingTheaph on Jun 20, 2020 14:48:26 GMT
If both trackers were braindead, you would be correct. You are forgetting that Town can and in some cases should lie. What does the Hypo accomplish if Trackers are forced the lie about their results? Clears/semi-clears. Having hypo results as "targetted town or no one" is also an idea.
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Post by battler444 on Jun 20, 2020 14:54:19 GMT
As far as the hypoing idea is concerned, I agree with what some others have said about it not being that good of an idea because 1) town needs to be coordinated and make sure the results actually make sense/not contradict other results, which could confirm those people as not tracker and out the real trackers, and 2) tracker is not cop, where the hypoing argument makes a lot more sense because you just need to state a simple result (although some results can be wrong, like claiming a Mafia Goon as not mafia which means they are not cop, which gives a greater chance for cop to be NKed, but that’s besides the point).
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Post by VigilanteVigoroth on Jun 20, 2020 14:56:08 GMT
What does the Hypo accomplish if Trackers are forced the lie about their results? Clears/semi-clears. Having hypo results as "targetted town or no one" is also an idea. oh as in a 'X didnt target dead person' thing Still seems pointless, as theres only a 1/4 chance that u catch a mafia killing if u track them. Not even worth semi-clearing until theres like 2 scum left imo
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Post by VigilanteVigoroth on Jun 20, 2020 14:56:46 GMT
although that does fix the issue of pr's outing other pr's for hte most part
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Post by ToiletBro2 on Jun 20, 2020 14:57:30 GMT
OK I have trouble believing that this is not a fake reaction, because hypos have been around a looong time and that's always been a downside of them. It seems to me like AZ is pushing hypo as a towny strat for a bit of towncred and is now a little peeved that something is getting in the way of that. Unvote spiderz Vote AlmostZero. I don't see how you're seeing it this way. AZ pushing for hypos is NAI. Let's continue this discussion; why would scum!AZ be peeved at not having the hypo strat work out? Town hypoing has little benefits to scum, and if you think that AZ is trying to gain towncred by pushing for hypo, in what situation would said towncred be useful especially since setup discussions tend to not offer much of it in the first place? Pushing towny strats does have use in gaining towncred, especially seeing as no one else mentioned it so AZ 'wouldn't have to mention it as scum'. That said, this was more supplementary to my earlier read on spiderz/AZ (which now I think is town/scum respectively). That said, I think it was vigvig who pointed out that hypo could even be negative in this setup, which does beg the question of whether or not AZ was intending to push a towny strat, or rather a scummy one in the guise of a towny strat. That could also explain why the 'nice catch' post seemed fake to me, because it could have been AZ hoping to minimise risk of someone figuring out the negatives of hypo. Still, this entire paragraph is speculation and could easily be barking up the wrong tree, but meh it makes sense to me.
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Post by spiderz on Jun 20, 2020 14:58:44 GMT
As far as the hypoing idea is concerned, I agree with what some others have said about it not being that good of an idea because 1) town needs to be coordinated and make sure the results actually make sense/not contradict other results, which could confirm those people as not tracker and out the real trackers, and 2) tracker is not cop, where the hypoing argument makes a lot more sense because you just need to state a simple result (although some results can be wrong, like claiming a Mafia Goon as not mafia which means they are not cop, which gives a greater chance for cop to be NKed, but that’s besides the point). I think in general you guys are over reacting about this, its very difficult to out PR's with hypoing tracker, and seriously theirs no issue in it, If tracker tracks slot that hasnt gotten a lot of attention on that day and hypos it, it practically makes them a hard TR, theirs really not that much of an issue in it
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Post by Gary The Savage on Jun 20, 2020 15:08:18 GMT
Aight so the fact that I'm suddenly the scummiest person here just because I asked to be an sr is great. Honestly my explanation was more or less on solely how the game works becuase it also incorporated that you need to make reads from the setup. Which speaking of reads ci said there wasn't a better person to shift to so I haven't.I did previously mention how I didn'tlike that anyone active made them a automatic tr. Also, not a fan of battler just getting on my lynch from the sole line as though they cocould be scum easily taking advantage. And lastly I don't think hypoing inspects is great because of the chance that tracker could just potentially see other tracker or bodyguard, and only oone person of three could potentially be sending a kill.
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Post by AlmostZero on Jun 20, 2020 15:51:48 GMT
There is nothing scummy about explaining an optimal way to play to a new player, and doing so is NAI, as both scum and town have motives to do so (look like you're helping town vs helping town). SRing based of off this post is pretty baseless as it isn't even too game-related. Slight fos on spiderz. Also, unless AZ-spiderz is a traitor-goon interaction, idt they're a scumteam because, because scum a) wouldn't sr their scumpartner immediately to retract that sr and b) this positive interaction between az and spiderz isn't particularly typical of scum in the early game (although b) is weaker than a) ) It is also worth pointing out that AZ claims cyan calls out cayden's inactivity, which isn't true, as cyan simply said not to be inactive (as newbies often are since they're overwhelmed), which is straw man and also makes me sl AZ since there was already a little bit of momentum on cyan and this is a way to hop on and seem like they're not just sheeping (I.e. fake read). Still, unless it's a traitor-goon interaction, idt AZ and spiderz are a scumteam. Honestly at that point doesn't it simply become an argument based on how you interpret words? In theory I can say that Cyan was in fact calling out cayden's inactivity and that you are wrong. Cyan asking someone to not be inactive bc they're a newbie is how you look at the words; it's a subjective view, which can only be cleared by Cyan. And lastly, I have almost no past interaction with anyone, so I will be unable to differentiate between a newbie and an experienced player. What really doesn't stick right with me is the fact that you derived a whole traitor-goon interaction hypothesis.
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Post by Gary The Savage on Jun 20, 2020 15:56:29 GMT
I'll completely agree that part of what I've said has been IOA, although, I am town, and I was simply trying to explain that the information can be used as a basis for the reads to be made, some of which of mine had just been stated
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Post by AlmostZero on Jun 20, 2020 15:58:46 GMT
Nice catch. I didn't think of it this way. There's a contrary solution where we can choose the towniest player and go from there, but that's another mess of its own, which given the current state of the game, isn't exactly ideal. But eitherway, I believe we should still go forward with the hypo plan. OK I have trouble believing that this is not a fake reaction, because hypos have been around a looong time and that's always been a downside of them. It seems to me like AZ is pushing hypo as a towny strat for a bit of towncred and is now a little peeved that something is getting in the way of that. Unvote spiderz Vote AlmostZero. Mate, I ain't no Sherlock. Just because "hypos have been around a looong time" doesn't mean that my hypo ideas won't have any problems. And even if I were to hypothetically been begging for towncred with the suggestion for hypo, why would I be peeved that my idea had a small problem?
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Post by AlmostZero on Jun 20, 2020 15:59:54 GMT
I'll completely agree that part of what I've said has been IOA, although, I am town, and I was simply trying to explain that the information can be used as a basis for the reads to be made, some of which of mine had just been stated I appreciate the fact that you've been using information as a mode to form reads, but have you been doing any form of raw scumhunting yourself? Specifically, do you have any fingers pointed at someone?
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Post by AlmostZero on Jun 20, 2020 16:11:48 GMT
I've been thinking about the benefits of a hypo, and I really don't see them As a tracker, there are 3 visits you could spot each night 1 of the 3 goons killing bodyguard other tracker so if we hypo no visits, theres a good chance that when the tracker outs themselves with a visit, they just show the mafia who the other PRs are, and if they hold off and say no target, that completely defeats the point of a hypo. Having no target doesnt even clear anything due to 3 of the 4 scum not targetting each night. It could work later, when theres less scum+less PRs, but as of right now I don't see it diong much apart from killing our PR's I believe it was AlmostZero who suggested it so im ping u In other news, Micro has brought nothing but negative energy and a read list that mostly consists of 'Has posted: TR, hasnt posted: Null Unlynch Tb2, Lynch Micromorphic First off, yeah you're right. Trackers out'ing other PRs is an issue yeah, but (shamelessly stealing Scorchie's idea) hypo'ing "X didn't target dead person" more or less fixes the issue. If the tracker got it correct and mafia figure out that the person is correct tracker, most likely the worst scenario is where the tracker will die and we'll get a mafiaso. Sure, maybe you saw another PR visiting the dead person, but the odds are low enough for me take the gambit.
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Post by ToiletBro2 on Jun 20, 2020 16:13:56 GMT
wait shit idk why that posted I was trying to quote and it megafailed
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Post by ToiletBro2 on Jun 20, 2020 16:14:29 GMT
what nothing posted my computer is screwing up let me actually make my post now
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Post by ToiletBro2 on Jun 20, 2020 16:16:03 GMT
There is nothing scummy about explaining an optimal way to play to a new player, and doing so is NAI, as both scum and town have motives to do so (look like you're helping town vs helping town). SRing based of off this post is pretty baseless as it isn't even too game-related. Slight fos on spiderz. Also, unless AZ-spiderz is a traitor-goon interaction, idt they're a scumteam because, because scum a) wouldn't sr their scumpartner immediately to retract that sr and b) this positive interaction between az and spiderz isn't particularly typical of scum in the early game (although b) is weaker than a) ) It is also worth pointing out that AZ claims cyan calls out cayden's inactivity, which isn't true, as cyan simply said not to be inactive (as newbies often are since they're overwhelmed), which is straw man and also makes me sl AZ since there was already a little bit of momentum on cyan and this is a way to hop on and seem like they're not just sheeping (I.e. fake read). Still, unless it's a traitor-goon interaction, idt AZ and spiderz are a scumteam. Honestly at that point doesn't it simply become an argument based on how you interpret words? In theory I can say that Cyan was in fact calling out cayden's inactivity and that you are wrong. Cyan asking someone to not be inactive bc they're a newbie is how you look at the words; it's a subjective view, which can only be cleared by Cyan. And lastly, I have almost no past interaction with anyone, so I will be unable to differentiate between a newbie and an experienced player. Not rly it's pretty clearly not thatWhat really doesn't stick right with me is the fact that you derived a whole traitor-goon interaction hypothesis. What's wrong with my reasoning tho?
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Post by Gary The Savage on Jun 20, 2020 16:19:03 GMT
I'll completely agree that part of what I've said has been IOA, although, I am town, and I was simply trying to explain that the information can be used as a basis for the reads to be made, some of which of mine had just been stated I appreciate the fact that you've been using information as a mode to form reads, but have you been doing any form of raw scumhunting yourself? Specifically, do you have any fingers pointed at someone? Currently haven't shifted from my original rvs as I said I wouldn't until something more evident came up. Have given a few leans/foggy though that may not be the clearest but they're there.
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Post by battler444 on Jun 20, 2020 16:19:44 GMT
Hello, I woke and I’ve read through everything, not sure where to start because there was a LOT of stuff going on. I am also not so sure how everything works yet so bear with me Quick thoughts: I TR micro, his reads list does not seem like something a scum would do, but his reads are kind of iffy (e.g. his SR on AZ for asking for hypos, honestly think he needed to put an SR somewhere and randomly chose him). I would like to Lynch Gary The Savage because of his statement asking to be put as a TR on the list and get the ball rolling. What do you think about the cases made against micro so far, and ftr the ball is most definitely rolling lmao. The biggest arguments against him are about his reads, which are definitely fair. I think though that he wasn’t pressured to give his list of reads, since the only thing I could find was you asking him to say something, which gives his reads more credibility and makes them seem less fake in a sense. I don’t wanna defend him too much in case he flips scum, and if you guys actually want to lynch him then go for it, since if he flips scum we can look at his list to know who to lynch in the future. (Also I do not know how to respond to more than one quote so I’m just gonna do them separately.)
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Post by skyfigueroa on Jun 20, 2020 16:20:14 GMT
TLDR: (TR - Spiderz) (TL - Vig) (SL - micro, battler) i didn't feel like i was gonna be lynched yet if you ever flip scum, this line esp is gonna come back to haunt me Why so paranoid? It was a line that landed awkwardly to me and, as spiderz said, made me worry about the suggestion of a spiderz+sky team if he flipped scum. Derz being proactive as well as his frustration towards some people's replies when as scum he could let some people go with their explainations to prevent bigger targets on his head warrants a TR for me now, so I'm a little more eased towards that line and can let it go for now. Nice catch. I didn't think of it this way. There's a contrary solution where we can choose the towniest player and go from there, but that's another mess of its own, which given the current state of the game, isn't exactly ideal. But eitherway, I believe we should still go forward with the hypo plan. OK I have trouble believing that this is not a fake reaction, because hypos have been around a looong time and that's always been a downside of them. It seems to me like AZ is pushing hypo as a towny strat for a bit of towncred and is now a little peeved that something is getting in the way of that. Unvote spiderz Vote AlmostZero. I don't really get this. You can't just give real time reactions towards certain things like in PS! where you can use tone well to your advantage. Either faction could've pushed for the hypo strat and I'm pretty sure a handful of users have already mentioned it's NAI to do so. If that's the case, wouldn't it be NAI to stand ground and still believe in hypoing? Also idk how well you can push something because of fake reactions and you might as well just say you're lynching out of gut. SKY: Not sure when you're gonna stop talking about spiders/sfl and start giving thoughts on somebody else. Other than that, they don't seem to be doing anything scummy. TR MYSTERY: Can't see if he's said anything. NULL DUDE: Same as mystery. NULL CYAN: You planning on providing reads or just gonna ask questions? His big ass post hurts my eyes with that light blue. The "bandwagoning" thing wasn't TB2 but was ME. NULL VIGVIG: His RVS line isn't scummy but I don't like how nobody has quoted it yet w/e. TR SPIDERZ: He has posted a ton of shit. TR GTS: You planning on playing the game or just gonna stick to telling people how the game works? SR TB2: His shit makes no fucking sense, I'm just gonna assume it's productive. TR CAYDEN: 3 lines of . Now that we confirmed we have your shit, you can start talking. SCORR: TR AZ: Asking for hypos got me like: SR EBLURB: Meh, I don't know what to make with his early townread. I do wish to see more of him. NULL MICRO: lock town TONI: Hasn't spoken. NULL BATTLER: Hasn't spoken. NULL One thing I think we can do better is forcing people to talk that haven't instead of all collectively hling spiderz with his shit and saying that he's town. unlynch tb2 lynch gtsDefinitely think these reads are weird especially with the explanations of some of them. People are calling it half-assed but even before he made the list of reads you could already see some signs of laziness so it was in character for the game at least. That being said, definitely don't like seeing laziness in town but I'm not ready to call micro an SR yet. I'll give him a slight scumlean for now. I've been thinking about the benefits of a hypo, and I really don't see them As a tracker, there are 3 visits you could spot each night 1 of the 3 goons killing bodyguard other tracker so if we hypo no visits, theres a good chance that when the tracker outs themselves with a visit, they just show the mafia who the other PRs are, and if they hold off and say no target, that completely defeats the point of a hypo. Having no target doesnt even clear anything due to 3 of the 4 scum not targetting each night. It could work later, when theres less scum+less PRs, but as of right now I don't see it diong much apart from killing our PR's I believe it was AlmostZero who suggested it so im ping u In other news, Micro has brought nothing but negative energy and a read list that mostly consists of 'Has posted: TR, hasnt posted: Null Unlynch Tb2, Lynch Micromorphic vig's point makes a lot of sense and I really wanna side with him here but I'm honestly pro-hypo for now bc I think the benefits outweigh the costs rn. Also like the thought process that went into this, so he gets a town lean from me. Reason for that lynch being I think everyone else has been fairly active and stating their thoughts and stuff (and so I slightly TR) while GTS has just been kinda there fillering. The rest of the people who aren’t talking I assume are asleep (like I was) and I don’t want to read them just yet because lurking really does not tell us anything about the alignment of the person. Yikes moment from me when the GTS wagon built up while I was gone. battler444 seems to just be repeating what everyone else has been saying, but I appreciate that there's effort trying to help town. Not enough for me yet though and the BW + reasoning that was just reiterated gets a scumlean from me. As far as the hypoing idea is concerned, I agree with what some others have said about it not being that good of an idea because 1) town needs to be coordinated and make sure the results actually make sense/not contradict other results, which could confirm those people as not tracker and out the real trackers, and 2) tracker is not cop, where the hypoing argument makes a lot more sense because you just need to state a simple result (although some results can be wrong, like claiming a Mafia Goon as not mafia which means they are not cop, which gives a greater chance for cop to be NKed, but that’s besides the point). I think in general you guys are over reacting about this, its very difficult to out PR's with hypoing tracker, and seriously theirs no issue in it, If tracker tracks slot that hasnt gotten a lot of attention on that day and hypos it, it practically makes them a hard TR, theirs really not that much of an issue in it ? had a point about how PRs could possibly outed which idt is very common but idt it would be that difficult for scum to do either, they just need a bit of POE, a bit of reading, and a bit of luck to hit a pr. I'm still pro-hypo for now (did i contradict myself there, not really sure) but for others trying to make a decision about hypoing in particular idt you should rule out the risks as non-factors. Not totally set on this right now, so if anyone has anything to say to change my mind, please feel free to do so. Will stay on Gary for just a bit more to see what happens but I'm very close to shifting lynches to either scumlean.
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Post by AlmostZero on Jun 20, 2020 16:23:45 GMT
ay somebody else who didn’t read what I said. cyan and GTS aren’t doing the same thing, GTS is telling people how to play and Cyan is just asking questions. my thoughts on tb2 wasn’t scummy, i just have no fucking clue what he’s saying, which isn’t scummy. what sky did also isn’t scummy, I just mentioned how he’s limiting his thoughts that I think are town to two ppl. same thing goes with vigvig, he’s said something that is townie and I mentioned how nobody has given their thoughts on it. AZ sr is because tracker =/= cop and it’s so much easier to find a tracker from a hypo than it is with a cop. I am not afraid to drop srs, I just don’t have too many at the moment and I need more people to speak. Is there any specific reason why you're considerably okay with Cyan's line of questioning? I personally consider line of questioning which have no specific aim an effective form of fake scumhunting, and I really can't pass it off as basically null. Sure, Cyan's questioning might be a little more helpful to town than GTS' buzz, but the gap isn't all that big in my eyes
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Post by battler444 on Jun 20, 2020 16:25:20 GMT
Perhaps fillering wasn’t the right word, but what I said in my post at that time was that everyone else has been giving their thoughts on the game (analyzing) while GTS has only been giving out explanations (information)
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Post by AlmostZero on Jun 20, 2020 16:25:27 GMT
(Although I do know that being active =/= town, he was the best option I had) I'm not sure what you mean by "best option I had"? Implying that you had to compulsively lynch someone?
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Post by Gary The Savage on Jun 20, 2020 16:27:51 GMT
Regarding what Tb2 just said with Cayden and sfl, I do find it not necessarily scummy but odd that Cyan just wants Cayden to be active disregarding how new they are because that's not a way we should work about this. What I do find scummy is though that Cayden's lack of action is fine but myself discussing the format is immediately a sr for cyan, becuase that's basically pmeta if you.re okay with them not helping solely because they're new but me discussing format is immediately scum. Also, battler isn't someone I like either making a read on me, saying this is scum cuz it isn't a blatant read and not speaking on anything else.
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Post by ToiletBro2 on Jun 20, 2020 16:29:37 GMT
I appreciate the fact that you've been using information as a mode to form reads, but have you been doing any form of raw scumhunting yourself? Specifically, do you have any fingers pointed at someone? Currently haven't shifted from my original rvs as I said I wouldn't until something more evident came up. Have given a few leans/foggy though that may not be the clearest but they're there. There is definitely stuff that you can make pretty hard reads off of. Idk why gts would keep on failing to make proper analysis as scum, but it defo isn't a townplay
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Post by AlmostZero on Jun 20, 2020 16:30:56 GMT
I don't see how you're seeing it this way. AZ pushing for hypos is NAI. Let's continue this discussion; why would scum!AZ be peeved at not having the hypo strat work out? Town hypoing has little benefits to scum, and if you think that AZ is trying to gain towncred by pushing for hypo, in what situation would said towncred be useful especially since setup discussions tend to not offer much of it in the first place? Pushing towny strats does have use in gaining towncred, especially seeing as no one else mentioned it so AZ 'wouldn't have to mention it as scum'. That said, this was more supplementary to my earlier read on spiderz/AZ (which now I think is town/scum respectively). That said, I think it was vigvig who pointed out that hypo could even be negative in this setup, which does beg the question of whether or not AZ was intending to push a towny strat, or rather a scummy one in the guise of a towny strat. That could also explain why the 'nice catch' post seemed fake to me, because it could have been AZ hoping to minimise risk of someone figuring out the negatives of hypo. Still, this entire paragraph is speculation and could easily be barking up the wrong tree, but meh it makes sense to me. I- First off, I'm seriously honored that you think that I am a mastermind who has the ability to come up with an extremely elaborate plan to disguise hypo as a scummy strat in the guise of a towny strat. No really, it's fascinating how overthinking a simple idea can result in these thoughts. I'm going to raise Occam's razor and honestly end this me-being-evil-genius discussion.
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