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Post by ForgotToFlush on Dec 18, 2023 2:06:37 GMT
Playstyle Advice Feedback Thread
"Hey I wanted feedback on this game I played, what do you think?"
See the problem is that nobody is saying things like this^
So this thread is here to solve that problem!
It's easy! Post or link your game logs and one of myself, Spiderz, or Schiavetto can tell you what we think.
You can post forum games or gamelogs from the room, whatever you have.
Alternatively, feel free to PM your logs to one of us instead if you aren't comfortable with asking publicly.
Feel free to ask for feedback on specific things you want advice on, like:
- Where did I go wrong reading this person?
- How should I have navigated this game-state?
- Why did everybody vote me here?
and more! You aren't limited in options whatsoever. Whatever questions you have, we'll try to give you an answer for.
Popular methods of recording logs include pastebin. If you need help with recording gamelogs, ask a room-staff for help.
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Post by Snaq ◢ ◤ on Dec 18, 2023 8:32:17 GMT
Probably doesn't need to be said, but do not ask about currently ongoing games (publicly).
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Post by AligningStars on Dec 19, 2023 8:23:05 GMT
commit brain damage then paly the game is the best srtat
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Post by Fame on Dec 26, 2023 10:43:07 GMT
Hiya I'll make the first post here Already had some feedback from Spiderz about this game which was pretty useful TLDR I'm scum here, I had just come off of Tropicana which was funky because it's OC, I think I wanted to be more aggressive/careless this game bc of how I played in that one where I think I was trying to feign towniness a bit harder in the early game before I resorted to trolling bc I knew I was fine. I got redchecked but I think that's immaterial, lots of clockable stuff in my play. Feel free to rip it to shreds if you wish, I can take it :] ps-mafia.proboards.com/thread/1304/classic-noc-gg-werewolf |
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Post by ForgotToFlush on Dec 27, 2023 10:44:52 GMT
Hiya I'll make the first post here Already had some feedback from Spiderz about this game which was pretty useful TLDR I'm scum here, I had just come off of Tropicana which was funky because it's OC, I think I wanted to be more aggressive/careless this game bc of how I played in that one where I think I was trying to feign towniness a bit harder in the early game before I resorted to trolling bc I knew I was fine. I got redchecked but I think that's immaterial, lots of clockable stuff in my play. Feel free to rip it to shreds if you wish, I can take it :] ps-mafia.proboards.com/thread/1304/classic-noc-gg-werewolf
looking at your chosen playstyle:
making a conscious choice to be aggressive means that naturally you'll attract more attention
now look at this next to the scum agenda for that day, where all wagons are town and you're hard pushing the person that eventually gets voted
at a very basic level this means you're actively putting yourself in a place of scrutiny, and giving people reasons to scrutinize you
so if you want an actionable thing you can work on right away, then you can look at reconciling your play, with the agenda
Trying to immediately assume thread control and go deep is appealing but, even without the red check, that d1 wagon is forever going to be a thing that can be held against you
if you wanna dig a bit past that then we can look at what the agenda really is
if your goal is push a specific misvote, then you'd need to be able to sell people on your conviction and why you need to push this vote
if your goal is exert thread control, then you gotta analyze what that really means. Posting for the sake of looking townie without much else going on really just gives everyone else more information to dissect and crucify you with. Above all else you want to be townread yes, but it isn't as simple as firing off reads until people are sold. There's an extra step there where people need to understand why you're saying the things you are. If you can accomplish that, then you're at least being townread but you don't necessarily have influence. What comes next is being able to coalesce with townies in the thread. People understanding your thought processes but disagreeing nonetheless will get you townread for a little bit. But instead if you can consistently keep your finger on the pulse and deliver something that is in line with the gamestate, to the point that townies are looking at it and going "oh I was thinking that too", then you're on to something.
Now look at the two different goals, and look at the potential pathways I outlined for achieving them. Do you see the dissonance? If you're gung-ho about a misvote, then you need to be really sure that the people you want townreading you, are fine with what you're saying about misvote. That isn't something that's certain D1. You got especially unlucky bc Classic is a setup with training wheels but nonetheless.
Taking a tangent to go off of the reads I made when I subbed in, particularly the interactions between you and Clouds, I think it's an issue of trying to do too much in a small amount of time, making it read like a series of forced progressions. It goes back to your chosen playstyle, jumping out the gates is one thing, you just need to learn how to focus your energy so you dont look that hasty. It's okay to be more cautious in some instances, because otherwise you're directly committing and leaving a paper trail. You can always give yourself more room to try and fabricate the progression, cutting it early and stamping multiple conclusions isn't necessarily a natural looking process.
Anyway that's what I think of the overall play pattern, at least for your D1. If you want feedback on something more micro than macro then just lmk. |
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Post by Fame on Dec 27, 2023 13:50:38 GMT
Hiya I'll make the first post here Already had some feedback from Spiderz about this game which was pretty useful TLDR I'm scum here, I had just come off of Tropicana which was funky because it's OC, I think I wanted to be more aggressive/careless this game bc of how I played in that one where I think I was trying to feign towniness a bit harder in the early game before I resorted to trolling bc I knew I was fine. I got redchecked but I think that's immaterial, lots of clockable stuff in my play. Feel free to rip it to shreds if you wish, I can take it :] ps-mafia.proboards.com/thread/1304/classic-noc-gg-werewolf
looking at your chosen playstyle:
making a conscious choice to be aggressive means that naturally you'll attract more attention
now look at this next to the scum agenda for that day, where all wagons are town and you're hard pushing the person that eventually gets voted
at a very basic level this means you're actively putting yourself in a place of scrutiny, and giving people reasons to scrutinize you
so if you want an actionable thing you can work on right away, then you can look at reconciling your play, with the agenda
Trying to immediately assume thread control and go deep is appealing but, even without the red check, that d1 wagon is forever going to be a thing that can be held against you
if you wanna dig a bit past that then we can look at what the agenda really is
if your goal is push a specific misvote, then you'd need to be able to sell people on your conviction and why you need to push this vote
if your goal is exert thread control, then you gotta analyze what that really means. Posting for the sake of looking townie without much else going on really just gives everyone else more information to dissect and crucify you with. Above all else you want to be townread yes, but it isn't as simple as firing off reads until people are sold. There's an extra step there where people need to understand why you're saying the things you are. If you can accomplish that, then you're at least being townread but you don't necessarily have influence. What comes next is being able to coalesce with townies in the thread. People understanding your thought processes but disagreeing nonetheless will get you townread for a little bit. But instead if you can consistently keep your finger on the pulse and deliver something that is in line with the gamestate, to the point that townies are looking at it and going "oh I was thinking that too", then you're on to something.
Now look at the two different goals, and look at the potential pathways I outlined for achieving them. Do you see the dissonance? If you're gung-ho about a misvote, then you need to be really sure that the people you want townreading you, are fine with what you're saying about misvote. That isn't something that's certain D1. You got especially unlucky bc Classic is a setup with training wheels but nonetheless.
Taking a tangent to go off of the reads I made when I subbed in, particularly the interactions between you and Clouds, I think it's an issue of trying to do too much in a small amount of time, making it read like a series of forced progressions. It goes back to your chosen playstyle, jumping out the gates is one thing, you just need to learn how to focus your energy so you dont look that hasty. It's okay to be more cautious in some instances, because otherwise you're directly committing and leaving a paper trail. You can always give yourself more room to try and fabricate the progression, cutting it early and stamping multiple conclusions isn't necessarily a natural looking process.
Anyway that's what I think of the overall play pattern, at least for your D1. If you want feedback on something more micro than macro then just lmk. Yessss, definitely took a lot from this I think as scum I'm really hasty in general, and that confidence leaks out a bit at times where it's contextually inappropriate. I think the concept of like, 'posting more = giving town more to work with' is something I should prob keep in mind too. Hard to find that balance between posting enough to be present, having a level of influence, but also not outing yourself. And generally speaking I like to have presence now because it's something I struggled with when I started earlier this year, but over-extending is equally an issue on the other end of the spectrum ig n_n 'Doing too much' is probably how I felt after coming off of that game in general too, so pacing is key there, the cop is unfortunate but at the same time it's like...I got copped for a reason no doubt, and that's probably linked to having a bit of an overwhelming presence in the thread so early so I made myself a good cop inspect. Will keep this in mind, ty for the advice !! |
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void
Dead Player
Signed
Posts: 5
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Post by void on Apr 13, 2024 21:38:34 GMT
Hiya I'll make the first post here Already had some feedback from Spiderz about this game which was pretty useful TLDR I'm scum here, I had just come off of Tropicana which was funky because it's OC, I think I wanted to be more aggressive/careless this game bc of how I played in that one where I think I was trying to feign towniness a bit harder in the early game before I resorted to trolling bc I knew I was fine. I got redchecked but I think that's immaterial, lots of clockable stuff in my play. Feel free to rip it to shreds if you wish, I can take it :] ps-mafia.proboards.com/thread/1304/classic-noc-gg-werewolfYou seem to have a real passion for the game and a drive for improvement so I am gona throw in my two cents. On a quick read through of your play I would agree with what ForgotToFlush said but I would like to expand upon it in a pragmatic way with 2 points: 1- If I was hunting you as a town player I would very specifically focus on the gap between your expressed confidence and the false reads you are making. I feel like they do not line up. This is a core perception tell in that because a mafia player knows alignments they have to both make up their reads and fake how confident they are in those reads while pushing a player. You have a very noticeable gap there which will hinder your ability to power wolf. 2- I suggest you track town bias more. As either alignment in smaller games I generally try to track what players positions are to identify patterns for a number of reasons. Specifically for your power wolf game if you track what townies have the most pull and who(+why!) they are suspicious of you can mirror their read. If they are more paranoid go for soft mindmeld points by posting a read wall echoing some of their concerns but in different context. If you want hard points from that player poke them on a player they have voiced a concern about in different context. Example: Player 1 has voiced concerns about the way Player 2's pushing for some non IA mech move. You could look at it and know its not IA but down the road poke Player 1 and directly ask them "What are your thoughts on this post; I feel like they have a scummy intention here." This does 2 very good things for you. It gives you town cred for the mind meld with that player but also helps foster a TvT manipulating a town players focus onto another town player. Would be a great trick to add to your bag given your play style : ) Anyways.. I love to talk theory and such and I hope this gives you some pieces to play with. If you have interest I will expand on how I track bias and how to use it to coordinate a wolf team but I dont want to step in and rant too much. |
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Post by Turtwigswiththrohs on Apr 29, 2024 16:31:43 GMT
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Post by Turtwigswiththrohs on Apr 29, 2024 16:32:17 GMT
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Post by ForgotToFlush on May 1, 2024 1:23:48 GMT
I think the best general feedback I can give is that you can benefit a lot from being more present, even if it's just to chat a bit more than you already do
From playing alongside you it felt like you kept popping in and out frequently without spending too much time in the thread itself, and it prevented you from developing a deeper worldview
I remember there was a specific point where I noticed you had a lot of scumreads but not many townreads and I think it's the sorta mindset you might wanna unpack a bit more
I think if you really can't find that many reasons to townread people, then you might need to recalibrate the basis by which you're scumreading people
couple small things just from memory, did you have anything specific you wanted feedback on? bc i can do a deeper dive too
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turtwigswithravens
Innocent Child
Turtwigswiththrohs + vaderaven
Posts: 79
Member is Online
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Post by turtwigswithravens on May 1, 2024 13:47:28 GMT
I think the best general feedback I can give is that you can benefit a lot from being more present, even if it's just to chat a bit more than you already do
From playing alongside you it felt like you kept popping in and out frequently without spending too much time in the thread itself, and it prevented you from developing a deeper worldview
I remember there was a specific point where I noticed you had a lot of scumreads but not many townreads and I think it's the sorta mindset you might wanna unpack a bit more
I think if you really can't find that many reasons to townread people, then you might need to recalibrate the basis by which you're scumreading people
couple small things just from memory, did you have anything specific you wanted feedback on? bc i can do a deeper dive too not specifically just an overview of smaller things i can fix |
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turtwigswithravens
Innocent Child
Turtwigswiththrohs + vaderaven
Posts: 79
Member is Online
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Post by turtwigswithravens on May 1, 2024 13:48:33 GMT
I think the best general feedback I can give is that you can benefit a lot from being more present, even if it's just to chat a bit more than you already do
From playing alongside you it felt like you kept popping in and out frequently without spending too much time in the thread itself, and it prevented you from developing a deeper worldview
I remember there was a specific point where I noticed you had a lot of scumreads but not many townreads and I think it's the sorta mindset you might wanna unpack a bit more
I think if you really can't find that many reasons to townread people, then you might need to recalibrate the basis by which you're scumreading people
couple small things just from memory, did you have anything specific you wanted feedback on? bc i can do a deeper dive too not specifically just an overview of smaller things i can fix oops hydra account |
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Post by ForgotToFlush on May 1, 2024 19:57:57 GMT
I think the best general feedback I can give is that you can benefit a lot from being more present, even if it's just to chat a bit more than you already do
From playing alongside you it felt like you kept popping in and out frequently without spending too much time in the thread itself, and it prevented you from developing a deeper worldview
I remember there was a specific point where I noticed you had a lot of scumreads but not many townreads and I think it's the sorta mindset you might wanna unpack a bit more
I think if you really can't find that many reasons to townread people, then you might need to recalibrate the basis by which you're scumreading people
couple small things just from memory, did you have anything specific you wanted feedback on? bc i can do a deeper dive too not specifically just an overview of smaller things i can fix
well i wouldn't call them small things but what I said is a good place to start i think
just be more present, and try to talk to more people
voicing general thoughts in isolation is fine but it's a team game so you gotta find who your teammates are and work with them
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Post by Prodigu on May 1, 2024 23:43:41 GMT
ps-mafia.proboards.com/thread/1369/sentenced-death-game-threadI had some semi-specific questions about the Edj game / general questions on approach to the game that hopefully I could get some advice on to hopefully smooth out some edges. (Hopefully Flush answers this, at least the first part) Flush clocked me as a potential scum very early into the game what keyed you into this? I have a general idea I think, but im not completely certain, I do think it has to do with my entrance into the game / most games where im scum in. I think generally as scum / town my entrances to games right when the game starts is probably one of the lower points of my play, usually at the start of the game theres a void of content to question / analyze / etc, whats the best approach to starting games? Is it just to attempt to pose some early questions to people where I can or is there something better that I could / should be doing right at game start? Im not sure how overly productive attempting to analyze the first few posts of a game would be when most of them are usually Nai (in my eyes) i feel like id be being a bit nitpicky if i was looking at some super early stuff, so would an alternative be attempting to get some conversation going? Secondly, as D1 continued a few people said SL Prod or SR Prod whats the best way to attempt to navigate this? I think the general way i handled it couldve been made better (I do think its definitely better than other approaches ive had in the past), at least in my mind the way i handled it was to talk about the allegations somewhat and move on myself to analyze / question other things, I feel like when im rethinking about it, i spent too much time trying to handle / talk about the reads on me, so is it better to try to address the reads in a singular post and move on or is there a different way to have handled it? I think the answers probably spend less time on it, but dont ignore it completely and work at other places but would still like some feedback here if possible. IK theres not a lot to talk about for this game for myself, but i do think my early game entrances are lacking / not in a place id like them to be at, and navigating being sr a bit better are the places id like the most advice on if theres anything outside that youd want to give feedback about, by all means its welcome
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Post by Schiavetto ♫ ♪ ♫ ♪ on May 2, 2024 0:02:55 GMT
Hi Turt! Kind of riffing off of what Flush was saying, I do think you could gain a lot by working to be more present through the game. Speaking from a wolf perspective, I think one of the things that worked in our favor when playing against you as scum is that, because you were sort of in-and-out of the thread and often were less engaged in discussion for the other players, it was relatively easy to make your slot fit into our narrative however we wanted. For instance, earlier on in the game it was less effort for wolfteam to fake a read on you, since we could be vague about your posts and there was less content to contradict it--and later on in the game, it was much easier to act as though you had partner-potential with the players we were pushing, since you didn't have as many interactions to contradict the cases we were making.
When you are more present and engaged in the thread, it helps other villagers to develop a read on your slot while also giving wolves less wiggle room to work with. As a good point of comparison, think about pqwerty and STP. Even though pqwerty and STP were mischops, and had some scummy elements to their play, the amount that they were interacting with players and being engaged with the thread meant that we had to put more planning into the cases we made on them--and it even helped them to solidify their reads on each other, even if they couldn't quite convince everyone in time. Putting more time into engaging with other players can really make a world of difference.
Flush mentioned how important discussion is--specifically though, I think some good entry points can be as simple as -giving a basic impression of someone's post -asking yourself if you agree/disagree with someone's post, then explaining why -asking for clarity or second opinions because those sorts of comments create room for follow-up and back-and-forth, kind of naturally making space for more discussion/interaction instead of just dropping by.
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Post by Schiavetto ♫ ♪ ♫ ♪ on May 2, 2024 0:57:24 GMT
o: ninja'd ps-mafia.proboards.com/thread/1369/sentenced-death-game-threadI had some semi-specific questions about the Edj game / general questions on approach to the game that hopefully I could get some advice on to hopefully smooth out some edges. (Hopefully Flush answers this, at least the first part) Flush clocked me as a potential scum very early into the game what keyed you into this? I have a general idea I think, but im not completely certain, I do think it has to do with my entrance into the game / most games where im scum in. I think generally as scum / town my entrances to games right when the game starts is probably one of the lower points of my play, usually at the start of the game theres a void of content to question / analyze / etc, whats the best approach to starting games? Is it just to attempt to pose some early questions to people where I can or is there something better that I could / should be doing right at game start? Im not sure how overly productive attempting to analyze the first few posts of a game would be when most of them are usually Nai (in my eyes) i feel like id be being a bit nitpicky if i was looking at some super early stuff, so would an alternative be attempting to get some conversation going? Secondly, as D1 continued a few people said SL Prod or SR Prod whats the best way to attempt to navigate this? I think the general way i handled it couldve been made better (I do think its definitely better than other approaches ive had in the past), at least in my mind the way i handled it was to talk about the allegations somewhat and move on myself to analyze / question other things, I feel like when im rethinking about it, i spent too much time trying to handle / talk about the reads on me, so is it better to try to address the reads in a singular post and move on or is there a different way to have handled it? I think the answers probably spend less time on it, but dont ignore it completely and work at other places but would still like some feedback here if possible. IK theres not a lot to talk about for this game for myself, but i do think my early game entrances are lacking / not in a place id like them to be at, and navigating being sr a bit better are the places id like the most advice on if theres anything outside that youd want to give feedback about, by all means its welcome I do think this is part of it, but actually tbh I think you kind of hit the nail on the head in DVC, when you mentioned Lind's read on you--there's this idea of being "caught for the wrong reason" as a wolftell, where a person's objective knowledge of their own alignment can bump heads against the things that subjectively "should" make them scummy on paper to create a disproportionate response to pressure (that ends up outing them anyway). It's the whole hit-dog-will-holler effect, you know? Tbh I think a big part of getting over that comes down to just reminding yourself that even villagers get misread sometimes (in fact, it's pretty central to the game) and, just as importantly, villagers are capable of changing their mind (and do it often pretty often tbh). It's kind of like, you tell on yourself a bit when you roll scum and then let players' momentary accuracy get a rise out of you early on--but what would you do in that situation otherwise, if you were town? You might just make a mental note of it the first time, and follow-up if you saw them explore the read more deeply. You might respond to the part of the poe that did resonate with you, and bring up those disagreements as points for further discussion ("Mm, I think I get where you're coming from on Xyz, yeah. I was actually getting ___ vibes from Qrs and Tuv though [...]"). Depending on how the game has progressed, you might actually take issue with someone not townreading you as an indication that there are deeper flaws in their progression (maybe as wolf fakereading, or misguided townie putting the game at risk), in which case your response might be a more detailed case taking on a tone befitting the situation... I'm sure we could go on. The big takeaway here is that, as town, you might have any number of reactions or non-reactions to being scumread, and it can be handy to keep those in mind as part of your "toolkit" as a wolf. When you pay too much mind too early on, you're tipping your hand. Fwiw, I do think later on in the phase, you had a decent course correction--when I made that towncase about how it felt like you were having a genuine reaction to that sudden influx of reads and then taking a time to reprioritize and do some real sorting, I do think that was definitely a step in the right direction for you. Moments like that let you sort of "walk back" scummier reactions into progressions that can seem more villagery overall. |
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Post by Turtwigswiththrohs on May 2, 2024 15:55:48 GMT
Hi Turt! Kind of riffing off of what Flush was saying, I do think you could gain a lot by working to be more present through the game. Speaking from a wolf perspective, I think one of the things that worked in our favor when playing against you as scum is that, because you were sort of in-and-out of the thread and often were less engaged in discussion for the other players, it was relatively easy to make your slot fit into our narrative however we wanted. For instance, earlier on in the game it was less effort for wolfteam to fake a read on you, since we could be vague about your posts and there was less content to contradict it--and later on in the game, it was much easier to act as though you had partner-potential with the players we were pushing, since you didn't have as many interactions to contradict the cases we were making.
When you are more present and engaged in the thread, it helps other villagers to develop a read on your slot while also giving wolves less wiggle room to work with. As a good point of comparison, think about pqwerty and STP. Even though pqwerty and STP were mischops, and had some scummy elements to their play, the amount that they were interacting with players and being engaged with the thread meant that we had to put more planning into the cases we made on them--and it even helped them to solidify their reads on each other, even if they couldn't quite convince everyone in time. Putting more time into engaging with other players can really make a world of difference.
Flush mentioned how important discussion is--specifically though, I think some good entry points can be as simple as -giving a basic impression of someone's post -asking yourself if you agree/disagree with someone's post, then explaining why -asking for clarity or second opinions because those sorts of comments create room for follow-up and back-and-forth, kind of naturally making space for more discussion/interaction instead of just dropping by.
ok thank you! |
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Post by ForgotToFlush on May 2, 2024 20:10:13 GMT
ps-mafia.proboards.com/thread/1369/sentenced-death-game-threadI had some semi-specific questions about the Edj game / general questions on approach to the game that hopefully I could get some advice on to hopefully smooth out some edges. (Hopefully Flush answers this, at least the first part) Flush clocked me as a potential scum very early into the game what keyed you into this? I have a general idea I think, but im not completely certain, I do think it has to do with my entrance into the game / most games where im scum in. I think generally as scum / town my entrances to games right when the game starts is probably one of the lower points of my play, usually at the start of the game theres a void of content to question / analyze / etc, whats the best approach to starting games? Is it just to attempt to pose some early questions to people where I can or is there something better that I could / should be doing right at game start? Im not sure how overly productive attempting to analyze the first few posts of a game would be when most of them are usually Nai (in my eyes) i feel like id be being a bit nitpicky if i was looking at some super early stuff, so would an alternative be attempting to get some conversation going? Secondly, as D1 continued a few people said SL Prod or SR Prod whats the best way to attempt to navigate this? I think the general way i handled it couldve been made better (I do think its definitely better than other approaches ive had in the past), at least in my mind the way i handled it was to talk about the allegations somewhat and move on myself to analyze / question other things, I feel like when im rethinking about it, i spent too much time trying to handle / talk about the reads on me, so is it better to try to address the reads in a singular post and move on or is there a different way to have handled it? I think the answers probably spend less time on it, but dont ignore it completely and work at other places but would still like some feedback here if possible. IK theres not a lot to talk about for this game for myself, but i do think my early game entrances are lacking / not in a place id like them to be at, and navigating being sr a bit better are the places id like the most advice on if theres anything outside that youd want to give feedback about, by all means its welcome
For the me-specific bit, your entrance made it feel like you had zero investment in the early stages of the game
your interactions with other people were pretty spare and it felt like they were done to spin your wheels more than anything else
This is definitely how some villas play early but it isn't something i associate with you, and I don't think the read needed to be you-specific to be valid
I would say just approach it how you would play as town, and focus on analyzing instead of trying to get comfortable buuuuut....
for the bolded, if you can't find things to analyze early on it might warrant a mindset shift
i think the most common scumtell i've seen early on (data citation: none) is what i just hinted at
wolves enter thread amidst the flurry of early activity and the first thing they try to do is get comfortable, by talking to other people and assimilating into the general flow of conversation
some wolves are VERY bad at this and stand out for their awkward starts
you don't have to look for awkwardness specifically but the general sentiment stands:
some people are trying to figure things out, some people are trying to fit in alongside them
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