Communicating Information

[Snaq ◢ ◤]

Okay, this may be a bit of a general topic, but I think there's a lot of improvements to be made here. Mafia is a game of communication, where you have to work together to find the people opposing you. However, many people aren't good at the art of communicating information. I often see that people think that throwing their reads out there is enough, without any justification, and then to just start pushing them. Some people can sadly afford this due to their reputation, which allows them to be sheeped even if they're wrong, or even scum. Others really can't afford them, and learn to play via a bad meta that doesn't allow them to improve well.

And sometimes, even just giving an explanation isn't enough. You have to interact with people. Interact with people. Especially in forum games, this is more notable. Sometimes on chat mafia, the sheer quickness of the game allows people with not giving good justifications and communication, but this is not the case on forum. If people don't trust you, or don't take you seriously, you may have perfect reads, but it won't help anyone!

Another form of communication is actually scumhunting. I do think people pressure people a decent amount, but sometimes people just explain reads to fall out of thin air. Well, this is not the case. You gotta look for them, pressure people, interact with people and talk to them. See what you think of what they say, especially when it starts shifting to the context of the game (or if they try to avoid saying anything important to the game...).

Another thing is that you have to communicate USEFUL information. Arguing with someone about why they're scum isn't going to help - they will keep stating they are not. Instead, you should try to explain it to others. Explaining to others why you are not scum isn't going to help if you're not going to try to find the real scum. Call someone who cares.

I feel like if the level of communicating and discussing information goes up, the overall quality of our games will go up too. Especially since people are able to improve more easily, as they can actually look at how they played compared to others, instead of being stuck having a bad reputation, being forced to follow others.

The overall tone may've sounded a bit harsh. Of course it happens on PS too. A lot actually, I just think it could be a higher level.

Questions:

- Do you feel that the meta would improve if people started communicating better?
- What could people do to communicate better?
- Do you think it's valid that reads don't have to be explained sometimes?
- How can one bridge the gap between chat and forum, especially when more communication has to be done?

[Snaq ◢ ◤]

I think an example of communication gone wrong is Alex's plays in the Ragnarok game. He's told me he thought it was his best game ever, with a lot of effort put in. Now the question is, why did the rest of the players not experience this? To most of the players it was as if he didn't do much major during the game. Lynched someone here and there, posted some things that weren't useful early game and posted some reads without explaining them (hello TBZ TR). None of these were really townie things to do day 1, where he possibly could've had a better point in the game by being more proactive within the thread and being more detailed.

Most of his posts have a short style, quickly responding to things without going in-depth. He calls out people for finding him inactive or fillery, but doesn't really do all that much besides disagreeing with people. No major analyses. The longer the game goes on, the more he puts himself in a victim role of being unfairly accused, which just increases the tension between him and the other townies (and scum, for whom he was an easy justified lynch). Eventually, no one really cared about what he had to say anymore. In general, I think this is an example of someone not used to a Forum meta, and being unable to shift well from the PS! Meta where you don't actually have to... communicate much often. (which would be nice to change overall).

I'm sorry if I offended you Alex, but you were very confused about it, so I thought to make a thread on this topic when I saw it later, and it'd be nice to have a discussion critically on what happened.

[gimm1ck]

Love this usage of forums to communicate play styles and strats.

Will touch on this later today.

[Schiavetto ♫ ♪ ♫ ♪]

I do think there's some pressure on people to just try and get their reads across when playing in chat/realtime, but I can't say it doesn't bother me when we've got a ten minute day and people would rather hotkey "X is scum" then take 1-2 minutes to explain how they got that idea (idea being that fellow townies could either come to understand the reasoning behind the read and help get it pushed, or catch a flaw in the read and help steer things in the other direction). Like, in general, it's more useful to have an explanation that can lead you to a conclusion than just a conclusion and nowhere to go with it.

I honestly do think that people sometimes forget that town's win condition isn't to survive: it's to lynch scum. You can't do that with one vote, and it takes more than spamming "do this" to get things going your way. Even in the case of more influential players taking charge, you then run into the issue of what happens when they're killed--at the end of the day, you want your townmates to be able to keep going.

[Schiavetto ♫ ♪ ♫ ♪]

This snippet from 9p fish is a good example of what I'm talking about here. Theme was Red Flag, all town had to do was lynch two wolves. Behold, 6v7 lylo:

The Anatomy of a 6-player "Quick"hammer

SPOILER: Click to show

[21:35:50] #Schiavetto: 6 v 7
The deadline has been cleared.
Day 3. The hammer count is set at 7
[21:35:50] Players (13): MafiaPrettyLad, ThunderBALLZ, Hanzomain7, haydenbree, Hustlevania, Arkhilean, B+A+T+T+L+E+R=444, Blorby, Bant boy, Happylappy☂, YashGreninja, Myself850, lu**rk till lylo
[21:35:50] #Schiavetto: !mafia dt lylo
LyLo
Type: term
LyLo: If the wrong player is lynched today, or nobody is lynched, town loses.
[21:35:53] Blorby has lynched ThunderBALLZ.
[21:35:57] Arkhilean: We only need two ww kills they said. It'd be easy they said
[21:35:59] Hanzomain7: is it lylo?
[21:35:59] haydenbree: Gr8
[21:36:01] haydenbree: Lylo.
[21:36:03] haydenbree: Gj guys
[21:36:06] Blorby: ThunderBALLZ and YashGreninja are scum
[21:36:11] haydenbree: I told u he was town.
[21:36:12] Bant boy has lynched Blorby.
[21:36:16] Hanzomain7: are you sure blorb?
[21:36:18] haydenbree: Bit u still lunched him
[21:36:19] Arkhilean: Tbz honestly seems the scummiest with how quickly he's been shifting
[21:36:20] Blorby: yes
[21:36:24] Blorby: i am sure haydenbree
[21:36:26] Blorby: Hanzomain7*
[21:36:30] Hustlevania: why was borbs saved
[21:36:32] Hanzomain7: because I'm pretty sure you're scum sis
[21:36:35] lu**rk till lylo: enough of your god complex battler444
[21:36:40] Hanzomain7 has lynched Blorby.
[21:36:42] haydenbree: I told u, blorby was town
[21:36:46] YashGreninja: Blorby is town Hanzo
[21:36:49] haydenbree: Atleast i think
[21:36:50] Arkhilean has lynched ThunderBALLZ.
[21:36:50] Hustlevania: but why hayden
[21:36:55] Hanzomain7: how yash?
[21:36:58] Hustlevania: you just saying it like its fact
[21:37:02] Blorby: we must kill ThunderBALLZ
[21:37:04] haydenbree: Nah.
[21:37:04] MafiaPrettyLad has lynched Blorby.
[21:37:07] Hanzomain7: his shifts are too erratic and he doesn't want to explain any
[21:37:07] haydenbree: Hmm
[21:37:08] Bant boy: Why is blorby town
[21:37:12] YashGreninja: Hanzo for now he is, cause there are better SRs than that
[21:37:18] Hanzomain7: like who?
[21:37:19] haydenbree: Smh
[21:37:24] Arkhilean: Honestly yeah. If he stays around he'll just get more of us killed. If he isn't scum then we have a pretty bad town
[21:37:29] #Schiavetto: !mafia lynches
Lynches (Hammer: 7)
3* Blorby (Bant boy, Hanzomain7, MafiaPrettyLad)
2 ThunderBALLZ (Blorby, Arkhilean)
[21:37:30] haydenbree: Not a single scum has died.
[21:37:37] Blorby: ThunderBALLZ is scum
[21:37:41] haydenbree: This is bad.
[21:37:42] Hustlevania has lynched Blorby.
[21:37:42] #Schiavetto: !mafia dt lylo
LyLo
Type: term
LyLo: If the wrong player is lynched today, or nobody is lynched, town loses.
[21:37:44] Blorby: can we plz kill him
[21:37:49] lu**rk till lylo: blorby the town
[21:37:51] Hustlevania: convince me
[21:37:54] Hustlevania: blorb
[21:37:58] MafiaPrettyLad: Theres a good chance scum is blorby hayden and yash imo
[21:37:59] Happylappy☂ has lynched Blorby.
[21:38:01] lu**rk till lylo: we get off both wagons kek
[21:38:02] Blorby: iam town vote me and lose vote for ThunderBALLZ and kill a scum
[21:38:06] lu**rk till lylo has lynched Happylappy☂.
[21:38:08] Hustlevania: I do think tballz is in my poe
[21:38:10] Hanzomain7: you keep saying blorb is town without saying why
[21:38:12] lu**rk till lylo: lappy is scjm
[21:38:16] Myself850: It is in fact lylo, yess
[21:38:19] Blorby: ThunderBALLZ isn't talking because he is letting me dig my own grabe he is scum
[21:38:20] Hanzomain7: stop noob meta'ing him
[21:38:22] Blorby: HE DOESNT CARE
[21:38:22] Blorby was warned by Kid A. (Bot moderation: Do not abuse caps.)
[21:38:29] Arkhilean: Tbz has been random lynching, switching at the drop of a hat, and just acting off will rather than thought.
[21:38:29] lu**rk till lylo: lappy is first scjm and we need 2 schm to win
[21:38:30] Blorby: i do
[21:38:31] lu**rk till lylo: lynch lappy
[21:38:33] Myself850: Our only lead is Blorby, so I think we have to
[21:38:35] Arkhilean: He just seems like a lurker doing filler
[21:38:38] +ThunderBALLZ: oh
[21:38:39] Hustlevania: the all caps is kinda convincing
[21:38:41] Hustlevania: deadass
[21:38:41] Blorby: Myself850 you lynch me and you lose the game
[21:38:44] Hustlevania has unlynched Blorby.
[21:38:46] ThunderBALLZ has lynched haydenbree.
[21:38:47] Bant boy: Sorry I’m sticking with my vote
[21:38:47] Hanzomain7: blorby flips scum, I'm confident
[21:38:56] +ThunderBALLZ: Blorby isn’t flipping scum
[21:39:02] Blorby: go ahead and kill me, i have made my argument
[21:39:05] +ThunderBALLZ: but I’m dead tonight when he flips town
[21:39:06] +ThunderBALLZ: so lol
[21:39:07] Myself850: There's been no quickhammer from wolves
[21:39:10] lu**rk till lylo: thunderballz its lylo
[21:39:13] Hustlevania: tballz tring the guy who is lynching him
[21:39:17] +ThunderBALLZ: >it’s lylo
[21:39:17] Hustlevania: is not the best look
[21:39:21] lu**rk till lylo: lynch lappy
[21:39:24] +ThunderBALLZ: wtf
[21:39:25] lu**rk till lylo: eh
[21:39:25] haydenbree has lynched Blorby.
[21:39:27] lu**rk till lylo: who cares
[21:39:28] +ThunderBALLZ: gg scum
[21:39:31] lu**rk till lylo: blorhy gets qhed
[21:39:31] +ThunderBALLZ: hayden and hazno
[21:39:32] lu**rk till lylo: bye
[21:39:33] haydenbree: Hmmm
[21:39:33] +ThunderBALLZ: were scum
[21:39:36] Myself850: so either Bant, Hanzo, and mafiaprettylad are all scum, or Blorby is
[21:39:36] +ThunderBALLZ: haydenbree
[21:39:36] Arkhilean: Either way we lynch town we die
[21:39:37] lu**rk till lylo: lappt was schm
[21:39:38] haydenbree: Lmfao?
[21:39:38] Hustlevania has lynched Blorby.
[21:39:39] +ThunderBALLZ: is obvious mafia
[21:39:40] Hanzomain7: blorb, legit, explain why you shifted so much?
[21:39:40] +ThunderBALLZ: today
[21:39:42] haydenbree: I exist
[21:39:42] YashGreninja has lynched Blorby.
Hammer! Blorby was lynched!
Lynches (Hammer: 7)
7* Blorby (Bant boy, Hanzomain7, MafiaPrettyLad, Happylappy☂, haydenbree, Hustlevania, YashGreninja)
2 ThunderBALLZ (Blorby, Arkhilean)
1 Happylappy☂ (lu**rk till lylo)
1 haydenbree (ThunderBALLZ)
Blorby was eliminated! Blorby's role was Vanilla Townie.
Night 3. PM the host your action, or idle.
[21:40:01] #Schiavetto: yikes @ that QH being permitted
10 were awarded to: the werewolf faction: hanzomain7, haydenbree, hustlevania, arkhilean, happylappy, yashgreninja;

As you can see, the day starts with lylo announcement and right off the bat you have half the scumteam reacting emptily to town's poor position. Hanzo quickly moves on though, keeping the attention off of the otherwise suspicious reactions from the wolves and trying to keep attention on Blorby, who at this stage was widely scumread and made the unfortunate mistake of instalynching TBZ. Hayden's melodramatic "wtg, now it's lylo" comments are especially incriminating here, but no one seems ready to comment on it, or even urge the slot to help get town out of the situation he's so vocally upset about.

Hustle, though, seems intent on preservation. The issue here is that if scum were to fail a quickhammer attempt, it would be relatively easy to pick out the partnerships, at which point they'd have to commit friendly fire in order to prevent town from achieving their wincon (i.e., lynch two wolves). Along with Ark, who by now has lynched TBZ to establish some distance from his partners (and in the process created two town wagons in lylo), Hustle is probably showing the most prudence out of the werewolves, and it seems to have worked out for him.

Unfortunately, the same can't be said for HappyLappy here, who tries to slip onto the Blorby wagon but gets called out by Lurk... except... lurk doesn't explain what makes Happy scum, and instead insists on Blorby's townhood--again, without saying why, despite Bant boy requesting an explanation. Hanzo capitalizes on this to justify staying put.

It's right about that point when TBZ wakes up and lynches hayden, who has done a great job of being extremely vocal deadweight. But TBZ doesn't explain what makes hayden scum here--heck, he doesn't even realize it's lylo until Lurk mentions it to him. At this point, though, town is too resigned to the imminent mislynch to actually make an effort to change it. At this point, he's reasoned that Hanzo is scum here, too, but there's nothing to be done. Not one member of town has made any attempt to get Bant boy or MPL to unlynch Blorby, not one member of town has made an effort to justify their newfound SRs to the rest of the town. Hustle relynches Blorby, and Yash comes in for the hammer.

Potato town is a real problem, and this is what it looks like.

[Alexander489]

Jun 16, 2019 19:34:14 GMT Snaq ◢ ◤ said:

I think an example of communication gone wrong is Alex's plays in the Ragnarok game. He's told me he thought it was his best game ever, with a lot of effort put in. Now the question is, why did the rest of the players not experience this? To most of the players it was as if he didn't do much major during the game. Lynched someone here and there, posted some things that weren't useful early game and posted some reads without explaining them (hello TBZ TR). None of these were really townie things to do day 1, where he possibly could've had a better point in the game by being more proactive within the thread and being more detailed.

Most of his posts have a short style, quickly responding to things without going in-depth. He calls out people for finding him inactive or fillery, but doesn't really do all that much besides disagreeing with people. No major analyses. The longer the game goes on, the more he puts himself in a victim role of being unfairly accused, which just increases the tension between him and the other townies (and scum, for whom he was an easy justified lynch). Eventually, no one really cared about what he had to say anymore. In general, I think this is an example of someone not used to a Forum meta, and being unable to shift well from the PS! Meta where you don't actually have to... communicate much often. (which would be nice to change overall).

I'm sorry if I offended you Alex, but you were very confused about it, so I thought to make a thread on this topic when I saw it later, and it'd be nice to have a discussion critically on what happened.

yh that was mainly a joke lol, its my best forum game though out of the 3 I have played, the thing that really hurt town was the fact that they were all focused on my playstyle instead of actually trying to actively scumread/play the game.

[qtball]

Speaking of communicating, idk how to do it so let’s hope that I do this properly!

I think part of the reason why many people are upset with sheeping is due to how crippling and annoying it is to deal with at times. The problem though is exactly what Snaq voiced in the OP; often times players just sit and say “tbz sucks why does Happylappy sheep every lynch I’m town!!!” instead of actually trying to make reasonable reads and appear to players as town.

Part of why sheeping also works is due to how vocal players are about their reasoning, or even if there isn’t reasoning. It’s simply the act of talking, and honestly right now there is too much lurking happening (and it’s quite annoying uwu). People join games, lurk entire days and say “I have nothing to say” or “I can’t make any reads” and then ask why they’re being lynched or call people stupid for not knowing how to make reads.

The key to good communication is actually communicating in the first place.

On a side note, we should totally teach all the noobs in the room right now how detrimental lurking is, and also have a workshop on how to make reads because honestly so many players right now just omgus and literally say “you lynched me first”.

[ihbst]

quickhammer in 13p kek town failed