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Post by grendel on Jan 30, 2021 5:00:00 GMT
So looking at it is there any situation Grendel is scum? Like we could big brain that they took advice from the memes and decided to become immune to all town actions but i seriously doubt anything like that happened. The real question is why the 2 NKs, and is there a possibility that Litt Nymphoed or did something like that again and that’s why? It weird how much he was pushing the idea i could be sleeper scum somehow even though Quo + Almost +there being 2 kills last night clears my slot. Im aware he dropped it, but i felt that it was not that hard a conclusion to come too on his own. :/ |
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Post by AlmostZero on Jan 30, 2021 5:01:26 GMT
Thats my point, it was such a weak push on Bath that I think its weird scum would bother to do it in the first place. Im trying to decide if from the perspective of how PTSD normally approtches games if thats how they would have done it As I said in my previous post, scum would put a minor scumread on their partner to create distance, aka, "Since I scumread x there's no way I'm partners with x!" In the case of PTSD x bath, bath was already not good in a good spot so TR'ing bath would immediately put PTSD in a very inconvenient spotlight, something scum usually want to avoid. Fact is, PTSD had to either have an amazing case on why bath was town, or be a sheep and go along with SR'ing bath. If your townread ends up being scum, it usually doesn't look well. Hopefully this answers your question as for why 'scum would bother to do it in the first place'. Also, 'how PTSD normally approaches games' is unreliable. |
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Post by AlmostZero on Jan 30, 2021 5:03:14 GMT
So looking at it is there any situation Grendel is scum? Like we could big brain that they took advice from the memes and decided to become immune to all town actions but i seriously doubt anything like that happened. The real question is why the 2 NKs, and is there a possibility that Litt Nymphoed or did something like that again and that’s why? It weird how much he was pushing the idea i could be sleeper scum somehow even though Quo + Almost +there being 2 kills last night clears my slot. Im aware he dropped it, but i felt that it was not that hard a conclusion to come too on his own. :/ He definitely would've continued to push you if I hadn't states that all the roles combined make it a me v/s ptsd Although I too wouldn't have thought PTSD was scum if it wasn't for my and quo's roles clearing you |
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Post by grendel on Jan 30, 2021 5:35:01 GMT
at the time of my early reads, there was jack shit to go on. I dont like how I was defended so hard as that initially seemed sus to me as if Grendel was looking to be seen as likely town when I flipped town if my wagon grew further. on the flipside, the reasoning for the defend seemed logically sound. Grendel - null -> Town Lean for reason stated above. really not trying to come off as lazy so my apologies if others feel the same way then WHY did you make an early readlist?  ? rereading the thread, this interaction tonally doesn't sound like town aggressing a top scum read. It reads more like a player who is frustrated by another's play. -/-/-/-/- Reading through Almost's D1 push on Bath I get a impression that Almost as scum wouldn't have seen Bath as salvageable upon Almost first entering the thread. With Almost being a player that really has a lot of WIM in general, at least that's my impression of them. The contrast of a buddy who is low posting, and under heat, must look too hard to justify/play around. So I do think that Almost's push on bath lines up with how i expect scum to bus. I think the argument about Almost having good day play isnt something i necessarily think should be equitable town credit. Skilled players are going to be good a faking their solving process as scum. So the points a net neutral to me. -/-/-/-/ I cant really find the words to talk about PTSD's D1 beyond that its ranges from "Not that town like" to "Who is PTSD?" They were a pretty big non-entity D1. Bath interactions are possibly most town like thing they did, but thats pretty subjective. -/-/-/- Reading D2 shortly |
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Post by grendel on Jan 30, 2021 5:56:48 GMT
Sorry, the lack of notices and anything going on makes me forget about this came, I hard claim CC. I checked Litt and Quo with the drawback that i would Vanillaise myself for the rest of the game after, though considering i got compatible, i would say it is worth it. I stand by my feelings that its a really gutsy move for scum to claim to be vanillised, since any kind of movement based feed back is an instant guilty on their end. plus clearing multiple townies at once when PTSD would be flying solo. Like he gets a lot of town cred, but he's also obligated to over extend himself at night, and deal with a tougher lylo/mylo. ptsd do you want to quote why you selected this order unvote ptsd I ran through a bunch of possible scenarios, and the best scenario in my mind was either finding you two as town and possibly gamesolving, or finding one of you two as scum and potentially stopping a huge late game threat. I also kept the idea of false investigative roles in mind, and it seemed more likely that if they existed they would’ve targeted Chap/Flush. (because i believe framer still works with cc ) I reckon that town would spend more time thinking of out of the box ways to circumvent mafia's defensive capabilities at night. -/-/-/-/-/- Almost looks fine D2 posting wise. Unfortunately tho the night action they claimed didn't interact with anybody else's night action, so it was basically non-confirmable. I noticed they didnt have a strong reaction when i put them in my EoD PoE, and I advocated that they be vigged last night. I feel like scum would recognize that mechanically everything i was saying was ture/near ture, and would be too afraid to openly contest it as they would look bad today. So a low key reaction makes sense from scum there. |
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Post by grendel on Jan 30, 2021 6:03:57 GMT
Im looking at d3 agian What's the difference between a follower and a full follower I had the choice to either follow grendel but not notice a factional kill if it occurs (here drawback being simply that I can't use an action that gives me a result next night) OR that I am able to use follower completly (aka I do notice the presence of a factional kill, here the drawback is that I vanillaize myself completely next night) I chose to use follower completly and vanillaize myself next night Point is, grendel is safe Almost vouches for me when they could have faked a guilty on me, or come up with something other night action. Thats a gutsy move since now the only misflip they can push is PTSD |
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Post by grendel on Jan 30, 2021 6:07:25 GMT
dang this is tough.
idk if i can be here in the morning, so I will probably have to vote soon
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Post by quojova on Jan 30, 2021 6:10:22 GMT
dang this is tough. idk if i can be here in the morning, so I will probably have to vote soon errr that is concerning since we need to coordinate our votes should we decide in the next hour or two? |
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Post by grendel on Jan 30, 2021 6:12:08 GMT
Yeah... im sorry to rush you. IRL BS you know  |
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Post by grendel on Jan 30, 2021 6:13:11 GMT
What are your thoughts on my thoughts?
I think im still leaning Almost
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Post by quojova on Jan 30, 2021 6:35:08 GMT
then WHY did you make an early readlist? ? rereading the thread, this interaction tonally doesn't sound like town aggressing a top scum read. It reads more like a player who is frustrated by another's play. this seems too speculative to be meaningful-/-/-/-/- Reading through Almost's D1 push on Bath I get a impression that Almost as scum wouldn't have seen Bath as salvageable upon Almost first entering the thread. With Almost being a player that really has a lot of WIM in general, at least that's my impression of them. The contrast of a buddy who is low posting, and under heat, must look too hard to justify/play around. So I do think that Almost's push on bath lines up with how i expect scum to bus. I think the reality at that point was no matter how it was perceived by the remaining scum member, bath was still salvageable at that point (and 1v6 is such a death sentence with all the town actions at night) - yet we know a scum bussed to some degree. How does that happen? It's probably not a move made with perfect calculation. I would argue ptsd's low engagement with the thread is the sort of environment in which you would expect scum to make an irrational bus rather than az's comparatively higher demonstrated interest in the game. Does it clear az? No, there's some chance bath just didn't want to play the game anymore and it was a coordinated move to profit off of bath's corpse as much as possible, but putting the potentional busses side by side it seems to be a point in az's favor.I think the argument about Almost having good day play isnt something i necessarily think should be equitable town credit. Skilled players are going to be good a faking their solving process as scum. So the points a net neutral to me. agree here-/-/-/-/ I cant really find the words to talk about PTSD's D1 beyond that its ranges from "Not that town like" to "Who is PTSD?" They were a pretty big non-entity D1. Bath interactions are possibly most town like thing they did, but thats pretty subjective. sure-/-/-/- Reading D2 shortly |
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Post by quojova on Jan 30, 2021 6:39:06 GMT
I ran through a bunch of possible scenarios, and the best scenario in my mind was either finding you two as town and possibly gamesolving, or finding one of you two as scum and potentially stopping a huge late game threat. I also kept the idea of false investigative roles in mind, and it seemed more likely that if they existed they would’ve targeted Chap/Flush. (because i believe framer still works with cc ) I reckon that town would spend more time thinking of out of the box ways to circumvent mafia's defensive capabilities at night. -/-/-/-/-/- Almost looks fine D2 posting wise. Unfortunately tho the night action they claimed didn't interact with anybody else's night action, so it was basically non-confirmable. I noticed they didnt have a strong reaction when i put them in my EoD PoE, and I advocated that they be vigged last night. I feel like scum would recognize that mechanically everything i was saying was ture/near ture, and would be too afraid to openly contest it as they would look bad today. So a low key reaction makes sense from scum there. these seem too minor in comparison to the big "why would they bus"/"why would ptsd claim cc" questions to be of much sway |
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Post by quojova on Jan 30, 2021 6:40:18 GMT
Im looking at d3 agian I had the choice to either follow grendel but not notice a factional kill if it occurs (here drawback being simply that I can't use an action that gives me a result next night) OR that I am able to use follower completly (aka I do notice the presence of a factional kill, here the drawback is that I vanillaize myself completely next night) I chose to use follower completly and vanillaize myself next night Point is, grendel is safe Almost vouches for me when they could have faked a guilty on me, or come up with something other night action. Thats a gutsy move since now the only misflip they can push is PTSD somewhat gutsy but entirely within possible scumplay |
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Post by quojova on Jan 30, 2021 6:40:42 GMT
What are your thoughts on my thoughts? I think im still leaning Almost as town or scum? I'm leaning ptsd as scum |
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Post by grendel on Jan 30, 2021 6:46:19 GMT
Im leaning Almost as scum
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Post by quojova on Jan 30, 2021 6:53:45 GMT
it seems like the vast majority of ptsd's towncase comes down to the cc claim
it's significant, but at the same time I feel like I have so much less of a grasp on ptsd as a player in this game than az from the quantity of content that even though I can't really rationalize any specific argument for why ptsd would choose the cc in that moment, beyond a certain point there's no way to reduce the chance ptsd just does that for some reason
meanwhile I'm struggling to come up with a world in which az takes a calm, calculated look at the thread and thinks, "yea, what I need to do right now is vote off my buddy and win the 1v6"
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Post by grendel on Jan 30, 2021 6:54:40 GMT
can you tell me more about your thoughts on PTSD's cc claim.
How likely do you think they come up with that claim as scum?
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Post by grendel on Jan 30, 2021 6:55:07 GMT
oh ninja'd
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Post by quojova on Jan 30, 2021 6:56:33 GMT
Im leaning Almost as scum looks like we talk I'm not sure which of the points you've raised you find most compelling - what's most significant to you? |
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Post by grendel on Jan 30, 2021 7:02:31 GMT
i think that stress in the moment + informed perspective would've made Bath look to risky to salvage at Almost's entrance.
I understand that dynamically Almost had the bigger impact in getting Bath flipped. But that just seems inline with the character of Almost this game and how they do things.
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Post by grendel on Jan 30, 2021 7:11:01 GMT
it seems like the vast majority of ptsd's towncase comes down to the cc claim it's significant, but at the same time I feel like I have so much less of a grasp on ptsd as a player in this game than az from the quantity of content that even though I can't really rationalize any specific argument for why ptsd would choose the cc in that moment, beyond a certain point there's no way to reduce the chance ptsd just does that for some reason meanwhile I'm struggling to come up with a world in which az takes a calm, calculated look at the thread and thinks, "yea, what I need to do right now is vote off my buddy and win the 1v6" CC dosent seem like a very safe claim for scum to make, and thier explnations in thread for choosing that action as well as the targets makes sense to me. -/-/- how do you feel about Almost's possible thought processes surrounding their night actions this game? What do you think about the follower cliam? Are Followers investigative to you? |
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Post by quojova on Jan 30, 2021 7:20:43 GMT
it seems like the vast majority of ptsd's towncase comes down to the cc claim it's significant, but at the same time I feel like I have so much less of a grasp on ptsd as a player in this game than az from the quantity of content that even though I can't really rationalize any specific argument for why ptsd would choose the cc in that moment, beyond a certain point there's no way to reduce the chance ptsd just does that for some reason meanwhile I'm struggling to come up with a world in which az takes a calm, calculated look at the thread and thinks, "yea, what I need to do right now is vote off my buddy and win the 1v6" CC dosent seem like a very safe claim for scum to make, and thier explnations in thread for choosing that action as well as the targets makes sense to me. -/-/- how do you feel about Almost's possible thought processes surrounding their night actions this game? What do you think about the follower cliam? Are Followers investigative to you? I guess my main point is that regardless of who is scum, someone made an irrational play, and that's more likely to come from someone loosely involved in the thread than someone who is more involved. yes, to me anything which involves the host directly providing information to you through chat is absolutely investigative, and if small comes back and tells us he considers followers to be investigative I suggest we snap vote az and be done with it. I sort of on principle don't want to take the game discussion to "what we think small considers to be an investigative action" though, even though as it stands it probably increases az's scumchance by a few percentage points |
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Post by quojova on Jan 30, 2021 7:24:31 GMT
tbh I'm not really sure what would be a productive form of discussion right now I'm not as confident that az is the scum as my last few posts make it look and my mind could change, but I think having us repeatedly point to "look, cc claim!", and "look, he bussed!" is not really going to get either of us there yet everything else feels negligible to those factors  |
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Post by quojova on Jan 30, 2021 7:28:33 GMT
CC dosent seem like a very safe claim for scum to make, and thier explnations in thread for choosing that action as well as the targets makes sense to me. -/-/- how do you feel about Almost's possible thought processes surrounding their night actions this game? What do you think about the follower cliam? Are Followers investigative to you? I guess my main point is that regardless of who is scum, someone made an irrational play, and that's more likely to come from someone loosely involved in the thread than someone who is more involved. yes, to me anything which involves the host directly providing information to you through chat is absolutely investigative, and if small comes back and tells us he considers followers to be investigative I suggest we snap vote az and be done with it. I sort of on principle don't want to take the game discussion to "what we think small considers to be an investigative action" though, even though as it stands it probably increases az's scumchance by a few percentage points this is an admittedly difficult situation to solve though because I doubt small comes in right now and goes, "yea, I actually consider followers to not be investigative" and completely kills the game instantly maybe the best move for him regardless of what he thinks is to stay silent or lie that he doesn't consider them investigative, in which case we get no actual information unless he gives us a sacred "trust me bro im telling the truth" |
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Post by grendel on Jan 30, 2021 7:29:00 GMT
CC dosent seem like a very safe claim for scum to make, and thier explnations in thread for choosing that action as well as the targets makes sense to me. -/-/- how do you feel about Almost's possible thought processes surrounding their night actions this game? What do you think about the follower cliam? Are Followers investigative to you? I guess my main point is that regardless of who is scum, someone made an irrational play, and that's more likely to come from someone loosely involved in the thread than someone who is more involved. yes, to me anything which involves the host directly providing information to you through chat is absolutely investigative, and if small comes back and tells us he considers followers to be investigative I suggest we snap vote az and be done with it. I sort of on principle don't want to take the game discussion to "what we think small considers to be an investigative action" though, even though as it stands it probably increases az's scumchance by a few percentage points Yeah, i guess im inclined to agree that a player with lower thread presence is more likely to make a misplay. How strongly do you favor PTSD over Alomst? -/-/-/ It will hurt me a great deal if Almost slipped with their night action claim today, and i ignored it. |
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