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Post by C7 on Dec 29, 2023 1:57:20 GMT
I am assuming everybody is a VT until claimed otherwise
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Post by cuddleszz on Dec 29, 2023 2:01:18 GMT
hi everybody i will be abusing page 44 to reread the entire thread and give my thoughts please come back in 4 hours for expected results. now that i have the time for this
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Post by Schiavetto ♫ ♪ ♫ ♪ on Dec 29, 2023 2:01:44 GMT
which like, again, is the bigger frustration here, because there should be way more urgency around building village consensus, and you straight up cannot do that if you're not building robust towncases &instead offload thinking into things like setup-solving as opposed to player-solving
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Post by Schiavetto ♫ ♪ ♫ ♪ on Dec 29, 2023 2:03:14 GMT
Instead of voting on who gets voted out today I think it would be more productive to vote how long day/night cycles should last because yall do not seem to respect time enough for this game to run on 48/24 and it should be 24/24 i'm going to be straight up and say this is NOT the take you want to go with today. |
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Post by C7 on Dec 29, 2023 2:04:02 GMT
hi everybody i will be abusing page 44 to reread the entire thread and give my thoughts please come back in 4 hours for expected results. now that i have the time for this If you have anything to do with the investigations please claim |
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Post by C7 on Dec 29, 2023 2:04:36 GMT
Instead of voting on who gets voted out today I think it would be more productive to vote how long day/night cycles should last because yall do not seem to respect time enough for this game to run on 48/24 and it should be 24/24 i'm going to be straight up and say this is NOT the take you want to go with today. I am just Very Annoyed that no one is here the first 24 hours |
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Post by C7 on Dec 29, 2023 2:06:20 GMT
hi everybody i will be abusing page 44 to reread the entire thread and give my thoughts please come back in 4 hours for expected results. now that i have the time for this If you have anything to do with the investigations please claim No wait fuck that you have no idea what they are about, ignore me |
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Post by AligningSuperSanta on Dec 29, 2023 2:23:15 GMT
i want to be super clear that CSes are literally Just Mafia, but i think a perennial issue with closed setup play is that people walk in thinking "well it's a closed setup, anything could happen!!" when really, all it means is that -the host has determined which roles are in the setup and which are not -the players are uninformed of which roles have been determined by the host &unless otherwise stated, we can presume that it's not bastard (i.e., host isn't lying to players, be it via mechanics, role pms, etc.) problem is, when you entertain that first mindset, where CS is tantamount to anything-goes, you inevitably end up shooting yourself in the foot because you stop getting at the meat of the actual social deduction element of mafia - where you're collaboratively working to sort out who's scum, who's town, and why - and start mediating that kind of thinking through hostmeta, giving undue weight to conjecture surrounding the circumstances of a specific game's implementation, or just otherwise letting imagination run wild. It's privileging Wild Mass Guessing/What Ifs, in a way that gets you things like two days of touch-and-go talk around the existence of a mafia mason that never needed to be discussed in the first place [x], tempting but ultimately narrow musings on what roles scum may or may not have [x] or any number of deadend solve-routes. It's how we kneecap ourselves. but on top of that, in no small part due to the above, when you leave space for that kind of CS approach, you make it that much harder to work within the bounds of *actual* sound mechanical play by fostering a game environment that's more habitable to things like wolves substituting speculation (which is a component of solving) for solving in and of itself (that same speculation accompanied by analysis/meaningful motion toward *affirming* information, instead of just guessing around it) or eleventh hour roleclaims whose reliability is curbed by the simple fact that regardless of validity, roles aren't intrinsically alignment-bearing outside of OSes/most semi-OSes, least of all when players have no time to actually process them. again, it just adds this whole other hurdle to the central goal of Determining Who Is Town and Who Is Not and Subsequently Eliminating the Latter tl;dr |
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Post by Schiavetto ♫ ♪ ♫ ♪ on Dec 29, 2023 3:00:44 GMT
Btw Cuddlez, you have been investigated by 2 different people who I'm sure are not investigative roles, I think it is safe to claim if you are involved with that like highkey i just do not think this is a productive way forward with half the day gone down the tube, a strong D1 followed by an immediate loss of game momentum D2, and half the game just not present
game has a massive urgency issue atm but relegating that to play out Waiting for Godot with some nebulous supposed amnesiac result(s) and bring another unresolved claim into the mix doesn't really do anything but drag us back into the rut of "shitty faux-mech CS play" as opposed to playing mafia and using mechanically reliable information to facilitate this. i don't know how you walk into this game and then have that be the top of your list..?
like right now i'm here:
decently confident in the earlier given IAVH townread--bolstered by things like early intervention on STP tunnel, a bit tempered by setup-solvey stuff like this [x], but not really wolfy enough to overlook the amt of dissonance it would take for w!clem to post the way he has.
then cudds & aligning are the closest thing we have to mechanically conf town -cudds has two separate claims of a secondhand/amnesiac greenchack going for him, and while nothing has flipped to give credence to the resultclaims (which does unfortunately leave the alignments of the two claimants up in the air), there's some Occam's razor at play re: the actual result(s). I don't want to see any wagons on Cudds here whatsoever. what MAY be subject to some scrutiny is the exact means by which we wound up with two iterations of that result, from two separate players, but it's exactly that sort of can of worms that we *don't* want (esp. considering the net result of a claim at this point just affirms what everyone should already be interpreting as a greencheck, while risking town's ability to get further information & putting whoever claims at risk of NK before town can get any further utility out of it) -aligning came right out the gate with a masonclaim, which kliff's flip corroborates, and myan's flip affirms that mafia exists in the setup, so we know atvl that aligning isn't maf. i don't think that people are being offbase when they call aligning wolfy, but i do think that we have been given very little reason to suspect the existence of a second hostile faction, and an argument for 3P mason would have to be extremely thorough for me to want to go down the Dreadful road of wondering why a host would run a 3P/Town masonry duo from a balance standpoint, or why a supposed third mason wouldn't out themselves in order to speak to any suspicions on their surviving partner, or! or! or!! it's literally just Probable that he's town.
rest of the roster to follow (along with some EOD2 thoughts because jesus christ) but i think this is a good starting point if we want any hope of establishing a core and running triage on an actually-decent POE. any objections, speak now or forever hold your peace
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Post by Schiavetto ♫ ♪ ♫ ♪ on Dec 29, 2023 3:04:43 GMT
i want to be super clear that CSes are literally Just Mafia, but i think a perennial issue with closed setup play is that people walk in thinking "well it's a closed setup, anything could happen!!" when really, all it means is that -the host has determined which roles are in the setup and which are not -the players are uninformed of which roles have been determined by the host &unless otherwise stated, we can presume that it's not bastard (i.e., host isn't lying to players, be it via mechanics, role pms, etc.) problem is, when you entertain that first mindset, where CS is tantamount to anything-goes, you inevitably end up shooting yourself in the foot because you stop getting at the meat of the actual social deduction element of mafia - where you're collaboratively working to sort out who's scum, who's town, and why - and start mediating that kind of thinking through hostmeta, giving undue weight to conjecture surrounding the circumstances of a specific game's implementation, or just otherwise letting imagination run wild. It's privileging Wild Mass Guessing/What Ifs, in a way that gets you things like two days of touch-and-go talk around the existence of a mafia mason that never needed to be discussed in the first place [x], tempting but ultimately narrow musings on what roles scum may or may not have [x] or any number of deadend solve-routes. It's how we kneecap ourselves. but on top of that, in no small part due to the above, when you leave space for that kind of CS approach, you make it that much harder to work within the bounds of *actual* sound mechanical play by fostering a game environment that's more habitable to things like wolves substituting speculation (which is a component of solving) for solving in and of itself (that same speculation accompanied by analysis/meaningful motion toward *affirming* information, instead of just guessing around it) or eleventh hour roleclaims whose reliability is curbed by the simple fact that regardless of validity, roles aren't intrinsically alignment-bearing outside of OSes/most semi-OSes, least of all when players have no time to actually process them. again, it just adds this whole other hurdle to the central goal of Determining Who Is Town and Who Is Not and Subsequently Eliminating the Latter tl;dr  Too bad, play or don't. No, I'm serious, read it anyway. |
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Post by Schiavetto ♫ ♪ ♫ ♪ on Dec 29, 2023 3:05:27 GMT
Food, shower, then right back into it.
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Post by C7 on Dec 29, 2023 3:15:55 GMT
Btw Cuddlez, you have been investigated by 2 different people who I'm sure are not investigative roles, I think it is safe to claim if you are involved with that like highkey i just do not think this is a productive way forward with half the day gone down the tube, a strong D1 followed by an immediate loss of game momentum D2, and half the game just not present
game has a massive urgency issue atm but relegating that to play out Waiting for Godot with some nebulous supposed amnesiac result(s) and bring another unresolved claim into the mix doesn't really do anything but drag us back into the rut of "shitty faux-mech CS play" as opposed to playing mafia and using mechanically reliable information to facilitate this. i don't know how you walk into this game and then have that be the top of your list..?
like right now i'm here:
decently confident in the earlier given IAVH townread--bolstered by things like early intervention on STP tunnel, a bit tempered by setup-solvey stuff like this [x], but not really wolfy enough to overlook the amt of dissonance it would take for w!clem to post the way he has.
then cudds & aligning are the closest thing we have to mechanically conf town -cudds has two separate claims of a secondhand/amnesiac greenchack going for him, and while nothing has flipped to give credence to the resultclaims (which does unfortunately leave the alignments of the two claimants up in the air), there's some Occam's razor at play re: the actual result(s). I don't want to see any wagons on Cudds here whatsoever. what MAY be subject to some scrutiny is the exact means by which we wound up with two iterations of that result, from two separate players, but it's exactly that sort of can of worms that we *don't* want (esp. considering the net result of a claim at this point just affirms what everyone should already be interpreting as a greencheck, while risking town's ability to get further information & putting whoever claims at risk of NK before town can get any further utility out of it) -aligning came right out the gate with a masonclaim, which kliff's flip corroborates, and myan's flip affirms that mafia exists in the setup, so we know atvl that aligning isn't maf. i don't think that people are being offbase when they call aligning wolfy, but i do think that we have been given very little reason to suspect the existence of a second hostile faction, and an argument for 3P mason would have to be extremely thorough for me to want to go down the Dreadful road of wondering why a host would run a 3P/Town masonry duo from a balance standpoint, or why a supposed third mason wouldn't out themselves in order to speak to any suspicions on their surviving partner, or! or! or!! it's literally just Probable that he's town.
rest of the roster to follow (along with some EOD2 thoughts because jesus christ) but i think this is a good starting point if we want any hope of establishing a core and running triage on an actually-decent POE. any objections, speak now or forever hold your peace
This is productive if I actually get the information I need, I am looking for either a specific role or a specific claim, there is some context missing to this situation but as long as 5 people are playing this will not be productive |
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Post by PenguinD on Dec 29, 2023 4:05:48 GMT
schia just spouted out a buncha words that just mean nothing or what
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Post by PenguinD on Dec 29, 2023 4:07:08 GMT
c7 who do you think shouldve been voted yday
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Post by micromorphic on Dec 29, 2023 4:24:49 GMT
This is an interesting approach to STP dying ngl. What made you feel like you got mindgamed? Do you feel like you should've been on a uni tr over the semi-conf you were on? |
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Post by PenguinD on Dec 29, 2023 4:38:39 GMT
This is an interesting approach to STP dying ngl. What made you feel like you got mindgamed? Do you feel like you should've been on a uni tr over the semi-conf you were on? i thought scum wouldnt nk stp bc i had bg'd them previously. so instead i went on cudd thinking scum would nk there instead |
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Post by micromorphic on Dec 29, 2023 4:38:47 GMT
yoshman8 can i get your thoughts on micromorphic and micromorphic your thoughts on yoshman and what do people think of peng's BG claim here, survivalist play & convenience, or does it have merit? why was neither the mason nor someone with a supposed town check on them killed? if mafia was afraid of peng guarding cuddz or aligningstars, STP would be a logical kill for them to make, does this boost peng's chances of being town? to me, it slightly does I don't really have any alignment thoughts on Yosh if I'm being honest. Obviously, there's the fact that STP posted that they thought Yosh was scummy and then them being targeted for a NK over a PR claim / semi conf thru cuddz is alarming, but I'd rather just see more from their slot in general and that feels way too obvious. It's like Level 1 NKA so yes it's notable but also just eh. If they were one of the main wagons near EOD today I'd be down to vote them. I've been overthinking the STP a little if I'm being honest but I feel like it stands out more as scum killing someone who contributed a whopping 13/42 (30%) pages to this game over scum killing the person who scumread Yosh near EOD yesterday. It feels like scum is trying to either control discussion or limit the amount of discussion to a town that isn't voting and isn't talking. As for Peng's BG claim, I don't think it looks better after the STP kill if I'm being honest but it also doesn't look worse. Near EOD there were people questioning the BG choice from Peng and I thought their choice was fine personally, as well as the one from last night, but I don't like how Peng feels as if they were "mindgamed" into making the wrong choice. It feels too aware from a town POV and I don't know what Peng's problem was with being on a potential mechanical clear, like that was a good move. |
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Post by PenguinD on Dec 29, 2023 4:39:07 GMT
probably better that i get nk'd there over a tr slot
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Post by micromorphic on Dec 29, 2023 4:39:17 GMT
This is an interesting approach to STP dying ngl. What made you feel like you got mindgamed? Do you feel like you should've been on a uni tr over the semi-conf you were on? i thought scum wouldnt nk stp bc i had bg'd them previously. so instead i went on cudd thinking scum would nk there instead Do you think you made the wrong choice or the right choice? |
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Post by micromorphic on Dec 29, 2023 4:39:54 GMT
probably better that i get nk'd there over a tr slot ah i see this answers my question |
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Post by PenguinD on Dec 29, 2023 4:41:07 GMT
wrong choice ya
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Post by micromorphic on Dec 29, 2023 4:43:29 GMT
yoshman8 can i get your thoughts on micromorphic and micromorphic your thoughts on yoshman and what do people think of peng's BG claim here, survivalist play & convenience, or does it have merit? why was neither the mason nor someone with a supposed town check on them killed? if mafia was afraid of peng guarding cuddz or aligningstars, STP would be a logical kill for them to make, does this boost peng's chances of being town? to me, it slightly does I don't really have any alignment thoughts on Yosh if I'm being honest. Obviously, there's the fact that STP posted that they thought Yosh was scummy and then them being targeted for a NK over a PR claim / semi conf thru cuddz is alarming, but I'd rather just see more from their slot in general and that feels way too obvious. It's like Level 1 NKA so yes it's notable but also just eh. If they were one of the main wagons near EOD today I'd be down to vote them. I've been overthinking the STP a little if I'm being honest but I feel like it stands out more as scum killing someone who contributed a whopping 13/42 (30%) pages to this game over scum killing the person who scumread Yosh near EOD yesterday. It feels like scum is trying to either control discussion or limit the amount of discussion to a town that isn't voting and isn't talking. As for Peng's BG claim, I don't think it looks better after the STP kill if I'm being honest but it also doesn't look worse. Near EOD there were people questioning the BG choice from Peng and I thought their choice was fine personally, as well as the one from last night, but I don't like how Peng feels as if they were "mindgamed" into making the wrong choice. It feels too aware from a town POV and I don't know what Peng's problem was with being on a potential mechanical clear, like that was a good move. FTR I do not have Yosh as a TR because STP died, I just feel like STP dying doesn't give yosh=scum merit. |
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Post by Schiavetto ♫ ♪ ♫ ♪ on Dec 29, 2023 4:45:11 GMT
VOTE penguindlike highkey i just do not think this is a productive way forward with half the day gone down the tube, a strong D1 followed by an immediate loss of game momentum D2, and half the game just not present game has a massive urgency issue atm but relegating that to play out Waiting for Godot with some nebulous supposed amnesiac result(s) and bring another unresolved claim into the mix doesn't really do anything but drag us back into the rut of "shitty faux-mech CS play" as opposed to playing mafia and using mechanically reliable information to facilitate this. i don't know how you walk into this game and then have that be the top of your list..? like right now i'm here: decently confident in the earlier given IAVH townread--bolstered by things like early intervention on STP tunnel, a bit tempered by setup-solvey stuff like this [x], but not really wolfy enough to overlook the amt of dissonance it would take for w!clem to post the way he has. then cudds & aligning are the closest thing we have to mechanically conf town -cudds has two separate claims of a secondhand/amnesiac greenchack going for him, and while nothing has flipped to give credence to the resultclaims (which does unfortunately leave the alignments of the two claimants up in the air), there's some Occam's razor at play re: the actual result(s). I don't want to see any wagons on Cudds here whatsoever. what MAY be subject to some scrutiny is the exact means by which we wound up with two iterations of that result, from two separate players, but it's exactly that sort of can of worms that we *don't* want (esp. considering the net result of a claim at this point just affirms what everyone should already be interpreting as a greencheck, while risking town's ability to get further information & putting whoever claims at risk of NK before town can get any further utility out of it) -aligning came right out the gate with a masonclaim, which kliff's flip corroborates, and myan's flip affirms that mafia exists in the setup, so we know atvl that aligning isn't maf. i don't think that people are being offbase when they call aligning wolfy, but i do think that we have been given very little reason to suspect the existence of a second hostile faction, and an argument for 3P mason would have to be extremely thorough for me to want to go down the Dreadful road of wondering why a host would run a 3P/Town masonry duo from a balance standpoint, or why a supposed third mason wouldn't out themselves in order to speak to any suspicions on their surviving partner, or! or! or!! it's literally just Probable that he's town. rest of the roster to follow (along with some EOD2 thoughts because jesus christ) but i think this is a good starting point if we want any hope of establishing a core and running triage on an actually-decent POE. any objections, speak now or forever hold your peace
This is productive if I actually get the information I need, I am looking for either a specific role or a specific claim, there is some context missing to this situation but as long as 5 people are playing this will not be productive No, we're not doing that. Independently of claims, who's your town right now.
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Post by Schiavetto ♫ ♪ ♫ ♪ on Dec 29, 2023 4:46:21 GMT
schia just spouted out a buncha words that just mean nothing or what taking this as a wolfclaim |
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Post by iavh on Dec 29, 2023 5:00:46 GMT
schia just spouted out a buncha words that just mean nothing or what taking this as a wolfclaim Woah woah woah |
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