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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2014 4:26:43 GMT
I think there are just too many variables surrounding this flavor of cop in order to make it a 'safe' addition to a game. It needs testing, and nobody wants to be the one to do it.
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Post by Fort Colorcastle on Dec 12, 2014 4:29:40 GMT
I thoug of something as well. In a game that assumes 2 scum parties, Maybe a cop that can inspect people who either lynched someone or were lynched, not both and not neither. Can inspect twice, once for each scum party (receives results like not Blue Mafia, Is Blue Mafia, not Red Mafia...) cannot inspect the same person twice in a night.
That actually seems pretty legit to me (coughcough**iwonderifsomeonejustsohappenstoberunningaupickgame**coughwheeze)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2014 4:34:38 GMT
So it's essentially what Igpay's chicken in Minecraft Mafia was, except not x-shot and can only target people who voted or were voted on?
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Post by Fort Colorcastle on Dec 12, 2014 6:42:13 GMT
that's far from it then XD.
It's a factioncop (ex: bloodhound, conspiracy theorist, FBI agent, etc) That cannot look for town That can only target people who either lynched, or were lynched. Cannot target people who were not involved in a lynch Cannot target people who both lynched someone and were lynched by someone. Can target multiple times in a night, once for each faction he can inspect for.
Honestly, if there was no doc in that game, there could be a very interesting game based around this.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2014 10:59:19 GMT
What happens if a Roleblocker targets a PGO?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2014 16:05:11 GMT
What happens if a Roleblocker targets a PGO? Easy; the PGO kills the roleblocker, and the PGO is prevented from using any other actions that night, assuming he has any other.
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Post by Fort Colorcastle on Dec 12, 2014 17:00:35 GMT
I would agree with citrus. After all, PGO isn't an action, it's a passive thingy. Activated PGOs have higher priority too, I think.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2014 17:15:25 GMT
Under normal conditions, the mafia nightkill has a priority of, let's say, zero. This is the standard for measurement. A WW kill has a priority of +1, cops/docs +2, PLs +3, and mafia PLs +4. The host determines the priority, but that's the standard. Some roles like buttons have a priority of -1 or lower. Most passive roles have absurdly high priorities, surpassed only by stuff like switches. A PGO, however, is known to have a priority of 0 most times. So if a doc was willing, they could protect them at the sacrifice of themselves. If two actions have the same priority, then the person who sent in their action goes first. This only happens with multiple scum parties, really. But, really, if a theme runs into trouble with priority, then either the theme is too complicated, not clear enough, with a bad host, or any combination thereof.
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Post by Fort Colorcastle on Dec 12, 2014 17:27:07 GMT
I would think that PGOs have a high priority. The very situation you described has a priority issue citrus lol. Mafia kill = 0 PGO kill = 0 Mafia kills PGO... whelp
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2014 21:46:02 GMT
PGO is a passive, unavoidable death to anyone who visits them for any reason, be it nightkill or otherwise. Nothing can stop it; the only things protected from it are things with a negative priority because they are too slow to be affected.
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Post by incognito on Dec 12, 2014 21:58:37 GMT
This was resolved a month ago, the PGO kills the roleblocker, that's the decision the mods came up with.
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Post by Fort Colorcastle on Dec 13, 2014 2:22:47 GMT
We moved on to spin-off questions lol odm citrus, the thing is if they are on the same priority, then doesn't the PGO die? or if the WW kills the PGO, doesn't the PGO die first, say at +1, the PGO already died, so at 0, PGO kill turn, he's no longer alive to kill... That's why your interpretation of what a PGO does is inaccurate.
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Post by Fort Colorcastle on Dec 13, 2014 2:25:16 GMT
This was resolved a month ago, the PGO kills the roleblocker, that's the decision the mods came up with. lololololol >singa was the one to ask the question (hint he's a mod)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2014 4:24:10 GMT
I'm pretty sure we didn't solve it though. Also, the PGO is not bulletproof: it shoots the same moment its targeted. This means when the PGO was shot by the mafia, both the mafia and the PGO would die at the same time. How I'm asking this is basically asking: What would happen when a PL and a Mafia PL (Both same priority, PS! Mafia for whatever reason decided that Mafia PL had higher priority) target each other, while the Mafia PL is also doing the kill. Really, reflexive moves aren't passive moves. For example, reflexive moves DO NOT have a priority. Passive moves do. So how does the PGO kill? Simple, its reflexive: meaning that they happen on the same priority line. You can tell by how PGO and mafia interkill when mafia tries to kill PGO. That means, when a PL targets a PGO, they both must have same priority. But note the effect of the PL's ability - PL stops all actions from the PGO. You can argue that roleblockers do NOT stop passive abilities (eg. Bulletproof, Treestump), but really: wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Roleblocker"More simply - if the player has to submit an action to the moderator, a Roleblocker can block it." "In practice, roleblocked abilities are simply considered to have never happened. Thus, roles such as Tracker, Watcher, and Paranoid Gun Owner do not work if they Track/Watch/are targeted by Roleblocked actions." Doesn't help too much. But in the wiki, PGO isn't considered as a passive role (which again contradicts the first few words where they says the PGO passively kills, bla bla bla) in the wiki, so lets take that route. So now, we just have to resolve the priority issue: Which goes first? PGO or PL - When they have the same priority? This would then go back to the first paragraph.
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Post by Fort Colorcastle on Dec 13, 2014 5:37:01 GMT
I personally would think that PGO would kill, based on that first quotation. I don't think PGOs need to submit an action. I think that if the PGO had secondary roles, like idk, a PGO bloodhound, the bloodhound would get blocked and the pl would die.
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Post by incognito on Dec 13, 2014 7:44:16 GMT
Snaq said it was resolved
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2014 3:55:49 GMT
A) Is the overarching theory discussed in this dual Calculus and Psychology Project coherent and understandable? B) If so, does it represent a markable shift in our attitude as a community to the possible complexity and originality than can be present in theme as bare-boned as Vanilla? C) Does this disprove follow the cop as a legitimate strategy in games with unknown and volatile role lists?
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Post by Fort Colorcastle on Dec 16, 2014 4:39:36 GMT
A) Is the overarching theory discussed in this dual Calculus and Psychology Project coherent and understandable? B) If so, does it represent a markable shift in our attitude as a community to the possible complexity and originality than can be present in theme as bare-boned as Vanilla? C) Does this disprove follow the cop as a legitimate strategy in games with unknown and volatile role lists?
Wow! Did you write this Citrus? A) Acceptably B) No because most of us won't read it C) Well of course not. It proved that the presence of a cop dramatically increases the chance of town winning, even WITHOUT a doc. I find that mathematically calculating mafia is problematic because no equation can account for human stupidity.
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Post by incognito on Dec 16, 2014 7:28:56 GMT
^ truer words have never been spoken
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2014 21:29:49 GMT
...Is there any way to discourage Follow The Cop in the types of themes we do? And should we?
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Post by champetero on Dec 30, 2014 0:23:03 GMT
Ok this is a topic I'm very interested. The best way to discourage follow the cop is by making most players competent in scumhunting and being frankly honest like 70% of the userbase here is shit at scumhunting. The best way to probably stop it is by making most games copless, like hosting vanilla,etc.
Also something major that has to change is that most players from now have no motivation to scumhunt, for example if you host vanilla in ps most people will want to change themes that have power roles.
I personally think the best way to reduce cop reliance is by making closed set ups that don't feature cop but still feature power roles so people can still have there power roles but be forced to scumhunt.
Also we should really make people less reliant to cops because it makes the quality of our games pretty horrible, by reducing the reliance the game quality will go up a lot.
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Post by Fort Colorcastle on Dec 30, 2014 18:24:30 GMT
I love how Champ just basically sums up the whole answer in one post. But I will add a few potential solutions. Probably the latter two work more effectively than the first three. Personally, I think that Follow the Cop is pretty broken, though there have been quite a few attempts to solve it. With varying success, several solutions include godfathers, millers, mafia pl, etc. Otherwise, a bodyguard or jailkeeper to replace the doc would also work.
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aknolan
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Post by aknolan on Jan 6, 2015 18:48:14 GMT
Follow the cop is a bit of a problem indeed, as it makes everyone lazy. But what if you are the cop and people follow you? That means you'll have to lead the town if you follow this system. Though I feel the cop is NOT a town leader in any way. As 9/10 there is a counter-claim of the cop it just doesn't work. In the case there's no mafia counter-claim the cop still has believable inspects, though that's ALL he has. Clearing some people or pointing at a confirmed mafia doesn't make you a town leader, while some do seem to think that. And because people think that they will follow the cop blindly, though sometimes the cop is a total idiot and the rest of the town is actually sort of smart about it, in that case it's not smart to follow the cop, and it doesn't happen very often in that case unless somehow the cop manages to seem smart. Personally I feel like this is one of the big reasons why some people don't really have a lot of skill with their games. There are of course other reasons (like not wanting to improve, I mean we had this amazing mentoring program for anything you want to learn, even though I am sure that I don't need the program I decided to see what I could learn from it, doesn't make me a noob.) but this is one that is the first we can do something about. As champ said we can do closed setups with no cops, but we could also do OPEN setups with no cops, or do special No setups with the rule of no cop, that would help with it too. I mean, everyone loves NS right? And Champ also said that 70% is shit at scumhunting, it's not just the scumhunting most people are bad at, it's also recognizing scummy moves, recognizing scummyness when someone is playing perfect as scum and not being scummy when being scum. AND NOT KILLING THE SAME PEOPLE NIGHT 1 EVERY TIME.
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Post by rssp1 on Jan 6, 2015 20:44:23 GMT
I cannot express how much I agree with Akno's last sentence.
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Post by Floette on Jan 6, 2015 23:09:19 GMT
I cannot express how much I agree with Akno's last sentence. To be fair those same people usually are the best at scumhunting, but god, it just makes end-game awful to watch.
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